D&D 4E You Don't Need a Healer in 4E... Yeah Right!

[vazanar]

Not a big change from 3.5

A DM that constantly throws +2 or +3 encounters against a leaderless party is just going to a TPK in the first place. It's a bad example. Scaling encounters closer to the party's level and giving out enough healing potions for everyone should be more than enough to cover their bases.

At least, I hope. I'll be running a game for a Tiefling Paladin, Tiefling Wizard and Eladrin Warlock pretty soon, and plan to put this to the test. As far as I know, it should work... but I'll let you know how it goes. XD

My old Iron Kingdoms and Ptolus games had the same problem. However, with healing potions in Ptolus it worked well. In Iron Kingdoms (gunmage, 2xogrun barbarain, rogue) they had to modify their tactics a bit.

It looks the same for 4e. Change of tactics and some potions can cover it. Plus a dm willing to take it into account. The dmg states the striker is the only role that can be dropped with min work.

 

[DM_Blake]

A competent DM will scale threats relative to the party's capabilities. If players want to play all rangers, a competent DM can present threats that will be a fair match for them.

Ahhh, it only took 13 posts to get the "A good DM can fix it" post.

Someone always posts this.

Whether it's a complaint about a broken rule, or an exploit, or just about how difficult something is to do, someone always posts "A good DM can fix that."

That's circular reasoning.

Basically, you're saying "The game is so good that a good DM can fix it."

OK, that's over simplified, but boiled down, that's what these posts generally amount to.

Unfortunately, not all DMs are good. And even good DMs might want to buy a published adventure, whip off the shrink wrap and play it right out of the box.

Maybe not every game table includes a good/experienced DM who thoroughly understands the entire ruleset (these are new rules, right?) and who spends hours in advance carefully planning every encounter and diligently adjusting the difficulty of those encounters to match the party that will encounter them.

And even when the game table has that DM sitting there, some of the players might not show up that day. Or someone might bring a friend who wants to join in. Suddenly that careful planning goes out the window. Adjusting on the fly requires a really good DM who knows the rules very well. I wish every game table had a DM like that, but it's just not going to happen.

So, when people are discussing problems with the system, or challenges they face playing the game, chiming in with "A good DM can fix that..." really doesn't help anyone.

So, if you would be so kind, please offer an example of how a good DM would fix it, rather than just regurgitating this obvious, and unhelpful, post.

 

[DM_Blake]

Having run 13 4e sessions for a party consisting of an Avenger Paladin, a Rogue, a Warlock and a Wizard, I can confirm with no doubt whatsoever that as long as the party has access to enough potions (2-3 per member per milestone, roughly) as party has no need of any kind of 'healer' type class at any moment.

Wow, using more than one potion per encounter, on average?

Yikes, that's a lot of potions.

Are they finding all these potions? Is the adventure a raid on a giant pharmacy?

Or are they buying them? Do you adjust the treasure packets to make them rich enough to afford them all?

 

[Seeker_of_Truth]

Wow, using more than one potion per encounter, on average?

Yikes, that's a lot of potions.

Are they finding all these potions? Is the adventure a raid on a giant pharmacy?

Or are they buying them? Do you adjust the treasure packets to make them rich enough to afford them all?

The create potion ritual is only level 5 and 50gp per is pretty affordable by then. It doesn't really take a lot of machinations to have the party have a sufficient supply of healing potions.

 

[Squire James]

I think anyone who thinks Twin Strike is broken isn't reading the text of the power properly. Unlike most other powers, those attacks do "[W] damage" as opposed to "[W] damage plus your Dexterity modifier". It's a good option for taking out minions, or getting an extra chance to hit a high-AC foe, but hardly the only thing to do! I admit it's a pretty strong at-will power, but it's no Thunderwave...

 

[Staffan]

I think most of the complaints regarding Twin Strike (two attacks each doing [W]) are in comparison to Careful Attack (one attack at +2 doing [W]). Unless you need a 19+ to hit, your chance of getting one hit in with Twin Strike will always be higher than your chance of hitting with Careful Attack.

And while you don't get a statbonus to damage with Twin Strike, you still get bonuses for magic weapons and feats like Weapon Focus.

 

[Fifth Element]

Ahhh, it only took 13 posts to get the "A good DM can fix it" post.

Think about the context of this discussion. One of the design goals of 4E was to eliminate the absolute need to have a cleric (or possibly druid) in the party. They have achieved this to a large degree.

We're really comparing 4E to prior editions here. In 3E, even a good DM could not fix the challenges facing a healer-less party (without making major changes to the system itself), because the system relies on having a healer in the party.

So by "A good DM can fix it", we're really talking about tweaking encounters. In 3E and before, it involves revamping the system entirely.

 

[vazanar]

Think about the context of this discussion. One of the design goals of 4E was to eliminate the absolute need to have a cleric (or possibly druid) in the party. They have achieved this to a large degree.

We're really comparing 4E to prior editions here. In 3E, even a good DM could not fix the challenges facing a healer-less party (without making major changes to the system itself), because the system relies on having a healer in the party.

So by "A good DM can fix it", we're really talking about tweaking encounters. In 3E and before, it involves revamping the system entirely.

I'd disagree. Both systems need a bit of work without a healer. Potions and use magic device with wands serve as a cleric in 3.5e. The major change was wealth to balance this. Which seems to be what no leader parties in 4e need as well.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread my group did this a few times in 3.5e. It's not the optimal, but it isnt in 4e either.

 

[phil500]

Um - you don't get bonus dmg on twin-strike - 1d10, then add your quarry dmg (d6/d8) on one of the hits. Read it again.

Son of a Bitch! i thought it was a little silly- every 2nd encounter or so the ranger would take out an enemy artillery with an at will in one turn, seemed really broken.

if he has weapon focus, is it still d10 or is it d10 +1 ?

lol, they are gonna be mad. i will have to cheat less to hurt them.

 

[Caliban]

Son of a Bitch! i thought it was a little silly- every 2nd encounter or so the ranger would take out an enemy artillery with an at will in one turn, seemed really broken.

if he has weapon focus, is it still d10 or is it d10 +1 ?

lol, they are gonna be mad. i will have to cheat less to hurt them.

They would get all their normal damage bonuses, just not the attribute bonus.