You hate "munchkin"? Here's the term *I* hate!

But Psion <sniff>....I love roll-playing! Gosh, I just roll play all the time! Roll-playing is such great fun, I roll-play every chance I get!

You're just jealous of us roll-players. With all our fancy dice. You have dice envy, don't you, Psion? Dice envy of us roll-playing roll-players.
 

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This might elicit an angry response, but I don't intend it to.

In another thread someone mentioned the term 'rule-player.' I think that is at least more descriptive than 'roll-player,' which as Psion pointed out, really doesn't mean anything in a game that uses dice all the time.

Hey, if you're gonna name-call, at least do it descriptively! :D
 

Why label?

My little brother (9 years old) plays with his friends in what others would call a "munchkin" game (Dragons are pets of their level 5 characters - and their level 5 characters have over 75 hit points). I never use the term munchkin. In fact, I don't label any game...

...you see, whether your level 5 character is the king of the City of Cloud Giants, or you are playing a more 'realistic' (is that possible?) character made by strictly following the rules, it doesn't matter what anyone else calls it --- as long as those participating are having fun.

When my brother tells me about slaying a dragon with his level 5 wizard, I smile and remember when I played my first dnd game and how much fun it was.
 

mindqwerk said:
Why label?

I second that. Considering we're all participants in a marginalized and demonized hobby, why fight amongst ourselves over style of play?

I prefer a game that has a nice mix of role-playing and rule-playing (nice one, WP!). Variety is the spice of strife.
 

I think there are two ways to use labels:

1) "Your group is a social group? Beer-and-pretzels gamers? Cool, but I'd probably go crazy in your group. I'm a total artfag gamer, real obsessive about the roleplaying end of things, and I'd drive you nuts. Enjoy your game, though!"

2) "Your group is a social group? Bunch of dice jocks? Dude, that's so totally not the point of roleplaying games! You're doing it all wrong if you bunch of munchkins don't get into character. Let me tell you how you SHOULD be playing...."

The former is cool, and useful; the latter is stupid, and pointless.

Daniel
 

mindqwerk said:
Why label?

My little brother (9 years old) plays with his friends in what others would call a "munchkin" game (Dragons are pets of their level 5 characters - and their level 5 characters have over 75 hit points). I never use the term munchkin. In fact, I don't label any game...

When my brother tells me about slaying a dragon with his level 5 wizard, I smile and remember when I played my first dnd game and how much fun it was.

DUDE! Your little brother is a TOTAL MUNCHKIN! What was he THINKING??? My God, the rules would never allow for that kind of play within their framework!

As an art-jock, er, dice-player, rule-fag, I vote you should put an end it it immediately! :D ;)
 



there are some people stupid enough to believe that you actually HAVE to sacrifice character concept, believability, and teamwork to optimize the character in survival situations.
I agree with the overall sentiment, but also think that you may be painting a bit too broadly with that statement.

Under 25 point buy, you could make a wise, intelligent, charismatic fighter, but I doubt you could call that character truly "optimised" for a role as a purely damage-dealing fighter, compared to his fighting buddy with 18 STR. If you had a character concept revolving around such a vision, yes, I think your character concept could be compromised if you envisioned such a fighter to be combat optimised for fighting, as well as a smart, wise, leader type.

For instance, a player was trying to construct a character like Duncan Idaho (very deadly knife-fighter, very wise and charismatic too), and it became a bit of a matter of compromise. We handwaved it somewhat by rationalising that in D&D terms, Duncan Idaho could be considered high level due to his background and resulting experience and wisdom, but meantime, the player had to compromise between fighting ability and intellectual roleplaying attributes.

I think the tying of attributes to roleplaying sticks in my craw a bit, because the balancing mechanisms of the game system can sometimes end up dictating PC roleplaying opportunities. On closer inspection, the attributes actually fly in the face of the "don't balance combat bonuses with roleplaying penalties", which is one of the cornerstone standards of D&D 3E. Effectively you are trading pluses to hit, damage, HP, and AC with the ability to be likeable in social situations and your range of (often non-combat oriented) skills.

I can see the beginnings of a (currently very flawed) solution as far as INT and WIS go, at least - replace them with something like Magical Aptitude, and Divine Aptitude, and divorce them from their definition of mental ability - leave that to the player's choice. (I can't think of a substitute for CHA, so we'll ignore it for now.) The obvious problems with this approach is that (A) there's no reason to build Magical Aptitude nor Divine Aptitude if you don't use arcane or divine magic, (B) you've just orphaned the dependence of saving throws and skills upon the abilities, and (C) there's no numerical representation of mental ability to guide DMs in roleplaying NPCs. So obviously, this prototype is broke, but I hope you see where such alternatives to the INT/WIS/CHA standard can lead.

Maybe this sacred cow is due for slaughter come 4E! :D
 
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