You Judge Miko (OOTS)

Should Miko fall from paladinhood?

  • Yes

    Votes: 354 94.1%
  • No

    Votes: 22 5.9%

  • Poll closed .
IMC, she would fall, but still be able to atone.

Her logical leaps are large but not, in fact, illogical. If Shojo and the OotS were the NPCs and Miko the PC, I would totally expect her guess to prove true, although I'd still have her fall temporarily.

I'm not sure why Hinjo would be considered a legitimate authority over her. Is he the heir to Shojo's throne? I don't recall offhand. Anyway, until Shojo is formally stripped of power or dead, Hinjo is only the heir and won't necessarily be the regent, depending on the system. As a member of the paladinic order, Miko outranks him and therefore the decision on the ground would seem to fall to her.

I don't believe in binding characters in a fantasy or sci-fi setting to the peculiarities of modern jurisprudence, so the "OMG due process!!11" reaction would never occur to me.

Nor would I have her fall because she killed Shojo, who, as it turns out, wasn't guilty. At the level of wealth and power she, Shojo and the OotS all operate on, death is an inconvenience and probably the safest way to incarcerate a dangerous criminal. Shojo dead is actually *easier* to try with some hope of getting an accurate result; corrupt officials under his thumb would be more likely to give their honest opinion without a (in Miko's eyes) dread spider of a manipulator spinning a web of deceit and destruction around them. If found innocent, Shojo would be raised raised and reparations of some type are paid, and if found guilty, death would have been the obvious penalty anyway.

No, the reason I would have Miko fall is because she struck IN ANGER. She behaved in a completely chaotic manner, acting on a sudden surge of emotion rather than reasoned, even if inaccurate, conclusions. Miko could have reasonably come to the conclusion that killing Shojo was the right thing to do - but she didn't. She whacked him because she hated the OotS, because she was personally offended by what Shojo had done, and, ultimately, because she was overly emotional to begin with.

What's worse, this is the second time she almost killed in anger. The first time, it was Belkar and, let's face it, she would have been 100% in the right to strike him down (albeit not with all of her hatred) if Shojo hadn't ordered her not to. In several other instances, she's behaved in a highly emotional manner. She appears to have been, up to this moment, constraining herself for the sake of her code (lawful behavior), but what she's been struggling with is her innate (chaotic) nature.

Now she's lost the struggle.

At best, she's NG after this. She could easily slip to TN or CG - or go all out in disillusionment and end up CN, NE or CE - because that seems to be more in keeping with her character. She could regain her control, albeit with continual struggle, earn back a LG alignment and atone for her fall. But for the moment, her mindset is completely chaotic and she should neither have access to her paladin powers nor be able to advance as a monk.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Knight Otu said:
Fall, definitely.

1. She lets anger and arrogance cloud her judgment. She takes action without knowing the facts, and fills in the blanks with her own theory.

2. She executes Shojo where such an execution is widely out of proportion - Shojo may be a liar and manipulator, but he was no immediate threat to the security of Azure City or the Paladins (it would have been an entirely different matter if he had been about to open the city doors or something similar). The prompt execution of Shojo served no practical Orderly or Good purpose. It especially does not prevent or slow down the approach of Xykon's army.

3. She ignores the legitimate authority for the case, Hinjo. She effectively calls him unenlightened (unlike herself, "who had a revelation").

4. She ignores the imminent threat from the approaching army of Xykon*, thereby potentially jeopardizing the defense of Azure City for her own personal vendetta. And by the looks of it, she would not have stopped with killing Shojo, but would also then attack Roy and Belkar, possibly injuring Hinjo in the process. And after that? The rest of the Order? (
Her drastic fall mitigates some of the potentially devestating results her actions could have had.
) *She is of course aware of it, but rather than prepare the paladins and the city defenses for the inevitable attack, she chooses to pursue her vendetta as I said before.

5. She does not even try to find out why Xykon still exists when he is supposedly destroyed, instead taking his continued existance as proof for her personal beliefs (and with so much Knowledge (religion) around her, it shouldn't be that hard to know about liches).
I don't think there's much more that can be said than this.

Rav
 

I don't even think atonement would work, for it would mean that the God's are okay with a mentally unstable person being their champion. This wasn't a, "OMG, in the heat of the moment a split-second decision had to be made and I went with my heart, please forgive my mistake for it will not happen again". This was a, "I am right, regardless of any other opinion, I will be judge, jury and executioner; even though a threat is not immediate".

No, there will be no atonement.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
I don't believe in binding characters in a fantasy or sci-fi setting to the peculiarities of modern jurisprudence, so the "OMG due process!!11" reaction would never occur to me.

I would also not expect them to ahdere to modern jurispridence. I would, however, expect them to adhere to whatever form of jurisprudence exists within the setting and her culture- and Hinjo talks about it before the attack, so she isn't unaware of it.
 

LogicsFate said:
"A Paladin must Knowingly commit an evil act." She gets the ignorance defense in my book, since she thinks she's doing the right thing.

That should be read as "A paladin must knowingly commit an act that is evil." Face it, striking down your aged, defenseless liege lord, and bypassing established rules of justice to do it, is all kinds of chaotic and evil, no matter what you happen to think about it. And Miko certainly knew what she was doing (unless Xykon's got her under some magical compulsion we don't know about).
 
Last edited:

LogicsFate said:
"A Paladin must Knowingly commit an evil act."

She doesn't have to know its evil - she just has to know she's doing it - meaning no coercion. The world of D&D tends to be one of absolutes - evil is not relative or subjective.

EDIT: A little late to this particular portion of the party, I see!
 

The thing is that Miko killing Shogo is very clearly being motivated by pride and wrath. Even if everything she believed were true, it doesn't change the motivations that Rich has laid out for her. She did not kill Shogo for the greater good. She killed Shogo because she was thirsty for the blood of someone she believed betrayed her.
 

YES!

I wouldn't totally expect party members to adhere to "OMG due process!!11!!1!" all the time either, however.. a few stipulations apply.

1. He was defenseless. Striking down an old, unarmed guy like that? Evil.
2. She's a paladin, within her home city which has clearly-defined laws. Out in the forest, desert, dungeons, or whatever.. it may not be prudent to take prisoners. Right in town? She broke the law out of anger. Evil.
3. Ignoring the safety of the city for her own personal emotions. Chaotic.

The gods struck her down! It's glorious! Good-bye Miko! All that's left is for Belkar to make a hat out of her skull.
 

Kristivas said:
YES!

I wouldn't totally expect party members to adhere to "OMG due process!!11!!1!" all the time either, however.. a few stipulations apply.

1. He was defenseless. Striking down an old, unarmed guy like that? Evil.
2. She's a paladin, within her home city which has clearly-defined laws. Out in the forest, desert, dungeons, or whatever.. it may not be prudent to take prisoners. Right in town? She broke the law out of anger. Evil.
3. Ignoring the safety of the city for her own personal emotions. Chaotic.

The gods struck her down! It's glorious! Good-bye Miko! All that's left is for Belkar to make a hat out of her skull.


Striking down someone in anger is not evil, chaotic yes evil no. Killing someone in cold blood planning that killing is evil. Enjoying the killing and suffering is also evil which is why I think Belkar is evil.

Killing an old man who you truly believe needs to be brought to justice is not evil it may be wrong but it is not evil.
 

Remove ads

Top