You Judge Miko (OOTS)

[shilsen]

So, is this the most lopsided poll result ever at ENWorld?

 

[Delta]

One thing I find interesting is that, going by the very active discussion and debate in the other thread, I would have guessed that the poll would split out closer to 30/70 or 40/60 (still in favor of Miko falling, but much closer in number).

And that's precisely why I started the poll (don't think it biases anything to say it at this point). I've found in lots of messageboard discussions that just a few dedicated posters can radically swing the apparent overall attitude of the community.

There was a post in the #407 discussion thread that pointed to #406 and said (paraphrasing) "look at all the debate, clearly it's a hard-to-resolve issue with no clear consensus". With this poll I think we can definitively say that the proper judgement is exceedingly clear for the vast majority of readers, which is what I was betting on.

 

[GwydapLlew]

No, you're still expecting perfection. Even Lancelot strayed from the path.

And Lancelot was a Fighter, not a Paladin. Galahad did not stray from the path, and he's a Paladin.

I don't expect perfection from paladins and I find Awful Good paladins annoying; in my game, it would depend on Miko's motivation as to whether she lost her powers. In her game, the DM ruled it violated her oaths. I'm fine with that.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I'll add that there is a big gap between "judge, jury and executioner" in a situation that did not dictate immediate execution...and...perfection.

I'm not expecting perfection, but I am expecting something a little less psychopathic.

As to the "feelings hurt comment", I am more refering to the "emo-teenage" reaction to having her feelings hurt, not the fact that she had her feelings hurt.

Now, I will admit, we often see a wide variety of opinions on what a paladin should be in these threads. My stance is that if we lower the bar too far, then even the village idiot will soon be a paladin.

 

[was]

I'd say yes......

 

[Storm Raven]

So let me get this straight. Either:

1) The paladins are right and Shojo is wrong about how to handle the whole snarl issue: Shojo is guilty of hideously chaotic evil actions threatening the entire universe OR
2) Shojo is right, the paladins are wrong, and, in a world with COMMUNE spells to set the record undeniably strait, Shojo choose to leave the paladins (in ignorance) on a course to commit hideous acts threatening the entire universe. That choice is, itself, a hideously chaotic evil act.

How about option 3 - Shojo is not lawful, but the paladins are. The paladins and Shojo are both good, but the paladins are bound by additional resitrictions as a result of the oaths they took as members of the Guild, restrictions Shojo is not bound by. Hence, his actions, while not in accord with the specific restrictions of the Guild, are not evil either, and not necessarily chaotic either (heck, the PHB description of NG says that "you can do good without bias for or against order").

What Shojo understands, that Miko does not, is that there is a need for both the Guild, and its vigilant watchfulness, and other methods of protecting the gates. This is not a "one must be right and all others are evil" situation. This is a "there are many paths to doing good" situation, something that Miko simply refuses to acknowledge.

 

[BlackMoria]

Weighted....Measured.....and Found Wanting.

 

[Delta]

And Lancelot was a Fighter, not a Paladin. Galahad did not stray from the path, and he's a Paladin.

Not as published in official D&D sources. (Lancelot & Galahad are both paladins in 1E AD&D Deities & Demigods, Arthurian legends section).

 

[blargney the second]

So, is this the most lopsided poll result ever at ENWorld?

*laugh*
Too true..

 

[prosfilaes]

I don't believe in binding characters in a fantasy or sci-fi setting to the peculiarities of modern jurisprudence, so the "OMG due process!!11" reaction would never occur to me.

But due process is not just a modern thing. Ancient China had some interesting rules; among others, a magistrate had to get a confession before an execution, and could beat it out of the suspect (in open court only), but if the suspect was innocent, the beatings would be revisited upon the judge. Beating the suspect to death was a death sentence for the judge. Given this code, what Miko has just done is not at all lawful, and would in fact be a death sentence for her.

A lot of fantasy settings, and almost any sci-fi setting, will have some sort of due process, at least in civilized areas, and paladins don't get to blatantly ignore it.