You nerf Haste... what now?

[Limper]

OK this one is for all the anti-Haste crowd out there.

If you nerf Haste (d20 Modern version) what do wizards and sorcerers do to stay in the game? By level 10 the fighting types are dealing out 50+ point of damage per round, they get more actions, they get to Tumble and Spring all over the battle field. How are the Arcane casers supposed to keep up? Between saves and resistances the Arcane casters spells (which is ALL they have to play with... unlike Clerics) just aren't doing to much, you NEED two spells per round to have a hope of anything taking effect.

Are you hoping that the Wizards and Sorcerers become backup characters? If you pull what few feeble teeth casters have from them what are you going to give in their place?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Well I'm not for nerfing haste to the d20 version though I think it could be trimmed down a bit. Still when I play a wiz I rarely cast haste, if its a known spell as a sor and it usualyl is I cast it sometimes but not often. I don't focus on combat at all, except maybe buffing for combat. I say go fighter go be the death machine. I'm content with making the party invisible, giving us good lodgings, summoning meat sheilds, protecting us form elements, covering our retreats with fog clouds, giving us mobility through fly, teleport etc, gatheing info through detect thoughts and contact plane spells, see invisible, dispelling hostile magic etc.

The fihgter should rule the wizard in damage dealing, still even without haste buff your DCs in a school and you can stil rule the school with save or die spells.

 

[brun]

Well, I haven't hade the chaceto look at the d20 Modern version of haste, but from wath I've heard, it is in line with the feel of "modern" magic. That is, a modern campaign, again, from wath I've seen and heard, is less magic-abundant than a fantasy one.

So, modern haste might perfectly fine, but the same version would out of place and underpowered in fantasy game.

But I do think the current version of haste is too powerfull for a 3rd level spell. I would have made it a 4th level spell.

And that way, by 10th level your arcane casters would still have 2 spells a round if they want to.

 

[Xarlen]

The Modern version of haste gives an extra attack (And not a spell action), and +2 deflection bonus (Or is it dodge?).

 

[WizarDru]

Between saves and resistances the Arcane casters spells (which is ALL they have to play with... unlike Clerics) just aren't doing to much, you NEED two spells per round to have a hope of anything taking effect.

Are you hoping that the Wizards and Sorcerers become backup characters? If you pull what few feeble teeth casters have from them what are you going to give in their place?

Let me get this straight...you think that the spellcasters are invalidated and made useless by HASTE?

Obviously you've never seen a game where a maximized lightning bolt gets followed up by a Maze on round 2. Yikes.

 

[Limper]

I'm saying that without it they're not much better than Bards... without it they become strictly backup for the rest of the group.

More actions are needed by ALL characters to compete at higher levels of play.

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear...

Maximized Lightning bolt... thats 30 damage after the save and likely lower due to resistances. Maze was always nasty but I don't see how casting it on the round after a big lightning strike plays into your example.

By the time the Wizard can cast Maze the fighter get 4 attacks per round I believe (this without trying)... doing about 30-40 points per hit. The rogue ran in tumbled about and got at least one if not more sneak attacks and a bunch of skill checks, the Cleric did a bunch of stuff as well... the wizard cast a spell, turn done... and if they save nothing much happens.

 

[Mort]

You’re saying that without haste, wizards/sorcerers are worthless?

Have you seen some of the things a 10+ wizard can do – such as an empowered fireball for 15d6 to a whole area. Heck even a measly 1st level magic missile of a 10th level caster does 5d4 +5. Spell resistance, fine but that’s what spell penetration is for + mages have enough buffing spells to do just fine indirectly.

And that’s just in combat (the only place Haste matters) – what about out of combat where many mages truly shine (between divination and various other utility spells).

Besides, by saying removing haste would reduce wizards to worthlessness you are defeating you own argument (which seems to be at its core “don’t change haste”). If it really were that powerful then it would certainly need reconsidering. A third level spell has no place defining an entire class.

 

[Limper]

I wasn't trying to argue anything.

I'm just wondering what all "the Haste is broken crowd" is getting at, what do they want? From my experiences the wizard even with haste just doesn't have the impact that a well designed fighter does... clerics get their cake and eat it to... I've never seen a straight class theif so I can't give an opinion, however the fighter/rogues (light fighters) get to do all sorts of stuff in a scrap... bards have some use but not much past mid-level... etc.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is... how would an arcane caster compete without it? It may be to nessessary, but nessessity does not equate to to powerful... I just feel that without it the Wizard/Sorc is about as little fun to play as the Bard... but without the BAB.

 

[Fenes 2]

Haste is also a booster for the melee classes - without it they have less full attack actions, and less possible skill combos.

 

[WizarDru]

I guess what I'm trying to find out is... how would an arcane caster compete without it? It may be to nessessary, but nessessity does not equate to to powerful... I just feel that without it the Wizard/Sorc is about as little fun to play as the Bard... but without the BAB.

Well, that assumes that the Bard is no fun to play, which I've also found not to be the case, but that's not really here nor there.

To what level have you actually played? My group currently has characters at 17th-18th level. I can assure you, the party wizard is NOT feeling underpowered, haste or no haste. Haste's balance doesn't really enter directly into the argument. As to specific spells, my point wasn't the actual individual spells as a combo...merely that a wizard could pull just about anything out of hat. Single-turn summoning alone is a biggie.

Case in point: during a recent combat (a level ago, I might add), the party encountered a 18th level Lich/Blighter and her zombie Dire Bears. The archer dealt out some pain, as did the paladin...but they still had to close range. The rogue manuevered, and the cleric buffed and healed. The Wizard threw down an empowered chain lightning....and then for good measure, threw a Meteor Swarm. The round that followed, he threw two more artillery spells. From 70 feet away.

More recent combat: horde of 200 zombies swarming on a lightly defended town. One maximized fireball later, there are 160 zombies approaching. No haste needed. The cleric unleashes a Positive Energy Burst, and we're down to 60. The druid unleashes a Elder Water Elemental to do clean-up.

No haste needed. The melee characters also had their hands full, but they certainly don't feel like the spellcasters aren't keeping lock-step with them, power-wise.