You nerf Haste... what now?

Limper, could you maybe give us examples of some recent battles you've fought in? Such as:
-Brief description of the enemies (e.g., 1 9th level cleric, a basilisk, and twelve 5th-level grimlock fighters)
-Brief description of the arena (e.g., a large cavern with a lake in the middle of it and a pier around the lake)
-The starting distance (e.g., we found out about them when they were 500 feet off, got a surprise round when we were 100 feet off, and rolled initiative)

Do that, and I betcha we can suggest some killer tactics for you that don't involve haste but do maximize a wizard's potential in the types of battles your DM prefers.

Daniel
 

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Limper said:
Buffing others and Hindering the enemy is dreadfully unsatisfing... the only way to quantify your contribution that I can see is body count.

But if you go by this comment then clerics don't generally match the other classes. Anyone care to argue that clerics are underpowered - anyone?
 

Well, wizards shine in areas other than combat. They're the ones who put up the rope trick when the party needs to hide or rest. They detect and dispel the magical traps. They use their class knowledge skills to recall valuable information. They command the weather, charm your enemies, and summon things from other planes to do their bidding. And yes, they enhance the grunts who don't do anything other than fight. Mages have a lot to do with their spell slots rather than hope to squeeze in a second fireball this round.
 

Re: Re: You nerf Haste... what now?

Crothian said:


Well, I don't see fighters of 10th level doing 50+ damage a round. And Wizards have pletny of good damaging spells by then. If the wizard is worried about ssaves then he can take feats to help that. If he's worried about SR he can take feats to over come it. Personally, I always found haste much more abusive when cast on the melee people then the spellcasters anyway.

Unless his GM neuters saves via ripping out GSF. :)

As for clerics, let's see...

Huge spell selection; they get every spell from every suppliment, just able to pray for them, but the Wizard has to track his spells down or research them.

Domain powers/spells rock. The Magic domain even allows clerics to cast spells from Wizardly items. Cleric with Shield wand, anyone? Scroll of Contingency?

Casting spells in Lots of armor.

d8 HPs.

Two good saves.

Spon casting.

Amazing spell selection. How about for one 6th level spell, 20d6 points of damage cap, for 1round per level. Try empowering that puppy for 30d6 points of damage for an 8th level slot.
 

Limper said:
IFrom my experiences the wizard even with haste just doesn't have the impact that a well designed fighter does...

Then something's either very wrong with how you play wizards, or with how your DM structures your encounters, or both.

At high levels it's usually the fighters who end up being almost irrelevant, and they're laughably easy to take out of the fight.
 

[House Rule]
Lesser Haste (+1 MEA/round. 1r/lvl): 2nd level
d20 Modern Haste: 3rd level
D&D Haste: Moved to 4th level
D&D Mass Haste: Moved to 7th
[/House Rule]
 

Well Limper, as someone who does not like Haste, here are my thoughts on the subject. Perhaps this will give you some insight as to why people do not like the spell as it is currently written.

As far as I can tell, the primary complaint against Haste is that any spell caster that chooses not to take it or use it becomes dramatically less effective when compared to those who do use it. As a result, everyone who can use it will most likely go out of their way to do so.

As a result, not many people like the spell. Its akin to adding a martial weapon to the PHB that has the following statistics:

SuperSword - 4d10 damage, 1 handed, crit 18 for x4 damage, 10 foot reach.

Now, how many fighters can you think of that would NOT take such a weapon? Everyone who can use a martial weapon would take it. Since every fighter has one, it nearly becomes a class feature.

Though Haste does not have as much of an effect on the game as that Super Sword would, the end result is the same. The spell is so good that people argue that spell casters need it to be useful.

Also you say that a Wizard just does not have the same impact in a fight as a well designed fighter does. Someone also said that fighters get more actions per round then the wizard, and can inflict more damage on a given creature. Based on those observations, some reach the conclusion that Wizards need Haste just to keep up.

I disagree with that.

Characters with multiple attacks only get to do that sort of thing when they do not move into melee, or are using a missile weapons. Missile weapons just dont quite have that kind of damage output (unless you decide a +5 bow using +5 arrows means a +10 bonus). And each attack only hits one target, and not all of those attacks are likely to hit, absent a great deal of other magical bonuses. Most damage spells can affect multiple opponents. Given enough targets, a Fireball can inflict well over a hundred damage, though it is spread among many different targets.

Trying to compare those two modes of attack to one another is meaningless. Each class excells at a different task, and the nature of the Adventures and Fights your DM uses are going to have a much greater impact on the game then any one class feature, feat, or spell.

If your DM likes to use single, powerful monsters with lots of HP's, then of course the Fighters (and Rogues) are going to inflict massive amounts of damge.

If your DM likes to throw 300 or 400 Zombies at you once in a while, the Mages, Druids, and Clerics are going to clean house.

If your DM likes to throw mated pairs of Ancient Wyrm Green Dragons with 3 young dragons (their children) following them, then the Dragons are going to clean house.

When most people complain about a rule in the game, its more often because there is something about the rule that they find aesthetically displeasing. If you think that a Wizard should be better then a fighter at inflicting damage on a Giant, then anything that reverses that situation is going to come accross as being just wrong to you. For me, I do not like that Small characters have a reduced movement rate AND inflict less unarmed damage then medium sized characters. I do not like that the Ranger is heavily front loaded and that the favored enemy progression means people end up with either a +1 to hit Dragons at 1st level or a +5 to hit Orcs at 20th. I also don't like Haste because it is just too useful a spell. Those things just seem wrong to me.

END COMMUNICATION
 

Missile weapons just dont quite have that kind of damage output (unless you decide a +5 bow using +5 arrows means a +10 bonus).

Sorry, I'll have to ask you to rephrase that - "if you house rule that a +5 bow using +5 arrows doesn't mean a +10 bonus".

There's nothing at all ambiguous about the rules-as-written on enhancement bonuses on bows and arrows stacking. They even give an example. Implementing that requires no decision - it requires a decision if you want to change it.

-Hyp.
 

For me, I do not like that Small characters have a reduced movement rate AND inflict less unarmed damage then medium sized characters.

Aww, that's hardly fair... after all, a Small kobold or goblin character moves faster than a Medium dwarf!

-Hyp.
 

Limper said:
I wasn't trying to argue anything.

I'm just wondering what all "the Haste is broken crowd" is getting at, what do they want?
A 1 full round casting time, one of the most elegent and underused balancing factors in the PH.
 

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