You nerf Haste... what now?

[Kae'Yoss]

Here's my two cents on haste, and on wizards:

There comes a time where the warrior types outshadow wizards in matters of downing a single foe, haste or no haste. It's around the time where they have 4 attacks, high STR, a nice crit arrangement, and a kick-ass weapon. Depending on the campaign style and its level cap, that moment will come. I think that's OK, because as soon as there are more than one enemy, the wizard will come ahead again, and as long as that balances out, it's OK.
(What I find stupid is the impact those save-or-die spells have later on, and I'm happy my DM used the suggestions from epic insight!)
But in order to give that wizard a chance to remain in the same league with the others, he needs his extra spell from haste. I don't want to say that haste needs to remain where it is, but I think it's a bad Idea to remove it completely or change it so only warriors benefit from it. Let the evoker - the thing we all instinctively envision as the single most damage dealer - with his damage spells be a viable choice, beside the buffer or annoyer.

But I don't say that haste is not a little to strong for 3rd level (or much to strong even.

[House Rule]
Lesser Haste (+1 MEA/round. 1r/lvl): 2nd level
d20 Modern Haste: 3rd level
D&D Haste: Moved to 4th level
D&D Mass Haste: Moved to 7th
[/House Rule]

Hm... I like that. The wizard gets to keep his favorite, but will have to pay more for it. We could also incorporate Mass versions of lesser haste and "normal haste" (the d20modern type), and rename d&d haste to greater haste.

Don't forget to price the boots of speed (and the boots of swiftness, if you use epics) accordingly. And get rid of the speed armor enhancement (or put it around MP +6 or more).

I do think that the d20 Modern version of haste is just right - for d20 Modern. I think that in d20m the wizards should take a weaker role in fighting (what they do, with all the big firearms, the fact that spellcasters are AdC's only, and cap their caster level at 10th - although I think the Urban Arcana campagin setting will pump it up...)

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Ooh the great haste debate, but I must resist.

natural 1...

It is just that haste p***** me off I think. Nothing too rational about it, I mean it won't crash the game. I guess something would rub me up wrong and I just took offense to haste. I am trying to get better.

 

[zorlag]

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Well, if haste is "nerfed", I think it would be safe to make Quicken Spell feat more appealing... +3 to level for example. And let bards and sorcerers use it spontaneously without increase in casting time. That way you could still blast spells quickly if needed, but you'd pay dearly for that ability.

Z.

 

[Christian]

We're at level 13-15. Even with Haste I'm lucky to contribute much in a fight... Buffing others and Hindering the enemy is dreadfully unsatisfing... the only way to quantify your contribution that I can see is body count. I cast double empowered bulls strength on the party duelweilder and I can't see what I've done... I'm sure it helps but how much?

Limper-well, as I always say, de gustibus non est disputandum (roughly, 'fine, as long as I don't have to watch you eat it').

Personally, I always found haste much more abusive when cast on the melee people then the spellcasters anyway.

Absolutely. Whenever our group gets into what looks like a really serious combat, the barbarian rages and my sorcerer hastes him. The AC bonus more than negates the AC penalty for raging, and he gets a bajillion attacks per round at his pumped-up Strength. It's like feeding the opponents into a big Cuisinart.

Seriously, the haste spell gives him that many more attacks before his rage runs out, enough that the combat is usually over. On the flip side, I find that when my sorcerer casts haste on himself, it just makes it possible for him to run out of spells. I usually save it for the melee fighter ... I may not kill many opponents directly, but I just take 50% credit for the barbarian's kills and that makes me happy. Well, really it's just the look on the DM's face when I cast the spell that makes me happy. I have no burning desire to take opponents down directly-it may be hard to quantify, but we can all see that the party is much more effective when the barbarian gets his fast-forward button pushed.

 

[LokiDR]

Limper, I don't think you have ever seen the terifying sight of a mage who really wants to destroy armies. I have a 13th level character who wanders around with AC 50+, 20 natural armor, dex 36+, always flying and always invisible. If it wasn't for the archer cleric we call the staple gun I would feel broken .

Start by persistan spell. Then use pro evil, shield, and mage armor. Later, you can use it on fly and improved invis. Next, make sure you have spell focus and GSF in evoke or transmutation. Spell penetration helps too. Take a PrC like Incantantrix, and take spells like disintigrate, poly other, invis, prismatic eye (MoF) for the instant kills. Empowered fireballs, magic missles, and firebrands make things die very quickly. If they are fighter types, try dominate person or charm monster. After some prep spells, they won't be able to hit you but you can take them out of the combat in one spell.

It is only because I have done this that I believe mages are obscene. I have seen little in the way of fighters to compete without a lot of help from their spellcaster friends. If you give them the help, they you should get credit for the victory.

The alternative to this is to cut out as much of this powergaming as you can. If the fight isn't the most important part of the adventure, perhaps you can get by with other interesting contributions that the fighters can't.

 

[shilsen]

Start by persistan spell. Then use pro evil, shield, and mage armor. Later, you can use it on fly and improved invis.

Persistent spell doesn't work on any of the spells you listed, other than Shield. I don't have my books with me, but I believe the other four are spells with a range of touch, and persistent spell doesn't affect such spells. As per the feat description, only spells that target you (e.g. Shield) or have a fixed range (e.g. Detect Magic) can be made Persistent.

That being said, I lean closer to your position than Limper's. Haste is a very useful spell, but even without it a high-lvl mage can hold his own with other classes, unless there are very unusual circumstance.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Limper, I don't think you have ever seen the terifying sight of a mage who really wants to destroy armies. I have a 13th level character who wanders around with AC 50+, 20 natural armor, dex 36+, always flying and always invisible. If it wasn't for the archer cleric we call the staple gun I would feel broken .

Start by persistan spell. Then use pro evil, shield, and mage armor. Later, you can use it on fly and improved invis. Next, make sure you have spell focus and GSF in evoke or transmutation

If you don't pay attention to the rules governing the metamagic feats, it's very easy to make powerful combos. Of the five spells you list, the only one Persistent Spell works on is Shield. (It only works on Personal or fixed (non-touch) range spells--consequently fly, improved invis, mage armor, and protection from evil are all out). Now, since mage armor is 1 hr/level duration, by the time you can use persistent spell, you can get better results by extending it twice so that bit doesn't matter. Persistent Protection from evil isn't a big deal either b/c rings of protection +2 aren't too pricey by 9th-12th level either. However, I suspect that losing Persistent Fly and Persistent Improved Invisibility will put a big kink in the power play.

 

[Henry]

Crothian and Henry: Your fighters aren't doing insane damage by level 10? How much are yours doing? Ours are terrifying by lvl 10... between Power Attack and the effects of Improved Critical (rage, specialization, high str... etc.) they do 50+ all the time.

EXACTLY - by character level 10, where haste ought to be kicking in, NOT at character level 5, where it makes the wizards inordinately powerful for short bursts of time. It is "sorta-balanced" by the fact that you have limited spell power to draw on, but it does take the fun out of the fight if the wizard is effectively ending the fight in two rounds by tossing off four or five spells in that time. At most, the fighter-types have lumped their pain on one or two opponents by then, rather than 10 or 15 of them.

Between SR, Elemental Resistances, and saves I find it difficult to get a spell through most of the time... maybe our foes are better buffed than standard... I know they have a level or two of classes added in more often than not. I cant find enough feats to get the punch I need. [/B]

...Which is why being able to cast more spells, to have that better chance at breaking through, or being able to cast a dispel magic, followed by the damaging spells.

 

[Unseelie]

We're at level 13-15. Even with Haste I'm lucky to contribute much in a fight... Buffing others and Hindering the enemy is dreadfully unsatisfing... the only way to quantify your contribution that I can see is body count. I cast double empowered bulls strength on the party duelweilder and I can't see what I've done... I'm sure it helps but how much?

I'm skipping to the end of this thread, so I apologize if these points have already been made.

1) Direct damage spells in 3e do not compare, IME, to the damage output of a buffed fighter or rogue.

2) Most DMs objections to Haste that I've seen seem to revolve not around the ability of a wizard or sorcerer to cast twice around, but rather because it's so easy for the rest of the party to haste as well.

Watch what your party can do if you start hasting all of your fighters or rogues. I know it's not necessarily rewarding for you, but it IS effective.

What I've done in my game is changed haste to a 'Range: Personal' spell. No more potions or wands of haste, but a wizard can still haste themselves.

If I were to do it again, I might consider instead changing haste to a 4th level spell. Potions and wands are still possible, but more expensive.

3) The route to an effective combat wizard in 3e, IMHO, is to concentrate more on 'Save or <blah>' spells like Circle of Death or the Power Word spells.

 

[Artoomis]

The "new" 3e Haste is just fine - the "old" 3e haste was too powerful - adding 4 to AC and an additional spell was too much.

In terms of actual damage dealt in any one round to any one person, the fighter should be king of all. Ater all, he can't do much else. An extra spell per round for the spell casters was just too powerful - Haste was a "must have" spell. An otherwise even battle against foes who have Haste while you don't was most deadly.

The spell caster is much more dangerous than a fighter already given the number of spells that are basically save or die (if you are "held" or something similar you are as good as dead). The spell caster can already add an extra spell per round if they want to pay for it (Quicken).

I have absolutely no problem with the d20 Modern version - it's what it should have been to start with. The "extra partial action" was simply the wrong mechanic to use.

Now we'll have no issues with charging around corners, etc., as the existing spell actually allowed, technically (not by Sage ruling, however).

Anyway, the new way of handling Haste is a much cleaner mechanic and I like it!