You nerf Haste... what now?

[Limper]

We're at level 13-15. Even with Haste I'm lucky to contribute much in a fight... Buffing others and Hindering the enemy is dreadfully unsatisfing... the only way to quantify your contribution that I can see is body count. I cast double empowered bulls strength on the party duelweilder and I can't see what I've done... I'm sure it helps but how much?

We NEVER fight a bunch of weak creatures... I guess thats the difference.

I guess I'm just bitter... my DM is anxiously awaiting the new edition and I'm dreading it, after 3.5 my contibution will be even less in any encounter if half of whats supposed to "fixed" is fixed. To me it just looks like a large expenditure which contributes nothing to my enjoyment of the game... but if I dont pick it up, the I'm at the mercy of the DM for my rules (and this is never a good thing). As far as I can see NOTHING is getting fixed that makes the game more fun... its like Magic the Gathering... new rules which make everything you've been doing wrong and you now have to spend more money. Not to annoying at 3 bucks a pack of cards... very much so at 30 bucks a book.

 

[Henry]

Moved to D&D rules.

 

[Crothian]

OK this one is for all the anti-Haste crowd out there.

If you nerf Haste (d20 Modern version) what do wizards and sorcerers do to stay in the game? By level 10 the fighting types are dealing out 50+ point of damage per round, they get more actions, they get to Tumble and Spring all over the battle field. How are the Arcane casers supposed to keep up? Between saves and resistances the Arcane casters spells (which is ALL they have to play with... unlike Clerics) just aren't doing to much, you NEED two spells per round to have a hope of anything taking effect.

Are you hoping that the Wizards and Sorcerers become backup characters? If you pull what few feeble teeth casters have from them what are you going to give in their place?

Well, I don't see fighters of 10th level doing 50+ damage a round. And Wizards have pletny of good damaging spells by then. If the wizard is worried about ssaves then he can take feats to help that. If he's worried about SR he can take feats to over come it. Personally, I always found haste much more abusive when cast on the melee people then the spellcasters anyway.

 

[Henry]

I wasn't trying to argue anything.

I'm just wondering what all "the Haste is broken crowd" is getting at, what do they want?

What do I want? I want it about a level or two higher, where the fighters ARE doing this 50+ points of damage per round you speak of, and the additional spells for higher level are able to be taken advantage of.

I think haste is a little too underpowered for where it is, but having it as a 5th level spell, and having mass haste as an 8th or 9th level spell, wouldn't hurt either way.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

If you nerf Haste (d20 Modern version) what do wizards and sorcerers do to stay in the game?

Well... they really have to empower/spell focus/stat boost to get the damage peaking up to that 50+ But the fighter types do seem to out perform them on the average if they can get their full attacks to bear, which haste helps nicely.

Haste still creates a spell on the run effect, great still for those flying and invisible. Quickened spells are more precious than ever and may be used for shield/mirror image/low level defence with short durations.

Long duration spells become more valuable for that near constant effect.

Hard choices need to be made at the beginning of battle, attack or defence?

That all said, the players won't see all their enemies haste themselves for every combat and that is comforting.

 

[Limper]

Crothian and Henry: Your fighters aren't doing insane damage by level 10? How much are yours doing? Ours are terrifying by lvl 10... between Power Attack and the effects of Improved Critical (rage, specialization, high str... etc.) they do 50+ all the time.

Between SR, Elemental Resistances, and saves I find it difficult to get a spell through most of the time... maybe our foes are better buffed than standard... I know they have a level or two of classes added in more often than not. I cant find enough feats to get the punch I need.


As a side note Mr Ooze Master did you like the awaken Ooze spell in the latest dragon?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The Modern version of haste gives an extra attack (And not a spell action), and +2 deflection bonus (Or is it dodge?).

It isn't a deflection bonus. It's either dodge or "haste" - just to prevent haste stacking.

the Cleric did a bunch of stuff as well...

Such as?

Not to annoying at 3 bucks a pack of cards... very much so at 30 bucks a book.

Price is no object, since this is going in the SRD. This has been confirmed by Andy Collins at www.andycollins.net - maybe I'll make a thread about that.

As for the Haste nerf, we don't know what will be done about it yet. It might not be nerfed that much, and even then a spellcaster doesn't have to use just direct damage or save-or-die. Even a Wall spell can be used to great effect (especially the saveless Wall of Force - virtually broken).

 

[Schmoe]

Crothian and Henry: Your fighters aren't doing insane damage by level 10? How much are yours doing? Ours are terrifying by lvl 10... between Power Attack and the effects of Improved Critical (rage, specialization, high str... etc.) they do 50+ all the time.

...
and
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I cast double empowered bulls strength on the party duelweilder and I can't see what I've done... I'm sure it helps but how much?

I think you've answered your own question.

Without your spells, do you really think the fighters would be dealing out 50+ per round?

Also, keep in mind that, in order to deal the 50+ damage, the fighters usually have to be in the front ranks, where they will be taking 50+ per round.

 

[Crothian]

Crothian and Henry: Your fighters aren't doing insane damage by level 10? How much are yours doing? Ours are terrifying by lvl 10... between Power Attack and the effects of Improved Critical (rage, specialization, high str... etc.) they do 50+ all the time.

Okay, our big beefy fighter does 2d6 (greatsword) +6 (strength bonus) +2 (specialization) +3 (Bonus on Sword) each time he hits that's 2d6+11, so max on a crit is 46. But average is only 18 on a hit (none crit). He only has 2 attacks a round and rarely hits with both. Even if he hit with both he still needs a crit plus really good damage to break that 50 damage in a round mark. Our archers attack 3 timesa round for 1d8+ 2 (strength bouns for mighty bow) +3 magical bow +1 magical arrow. So that's only 1d8+6, and that's out cleric. The ranger is a much better archer but doesn't have a magic bow or the strength bonus for a mighty one. So he hits more often but does less damage per arrow.

Between SR, Elemental Resistances, and saves I find it difficult to get a spell through most of the time... maybe our foes are better buffed than standard... I know they have a level or two of classes added in more often than not. I cant find enough feats to get the punch I need.

Our Wizard has evocation as a banned school, but he has enough spells from source books to still have direct damage potential. He perfers summoning things, but when he needs to he can clear the board of badguys. So, if creatures have high SR or high saves he can always resort to other spells to still be very effective.

As a side note Mr Ooze Master did you like the awaken Ooze spell in the latest dragon?

Great spell, but it's only Arcane. My Oozemaster is a cleric, so I'd have to fast talk the DM to allow it on my spell list.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

If you ask me, the question isn't what will become of wizards--save or dies will work just fine. And area effect will still work just as well against hordes of small creatures if they ever show up in your games.

The question is what will become of fighter/wizards? The class combo has very little synergy and is difficult to pull of now (and in my experience, a perfectly constructed one is similar in efficiency to a decently constructed single class fighter or wizard). Now, scuttlebut has it that the two spells which are the core of the class combo (and are by far the most efficient of the two or four spells which give any synergy whatsoever to the combo)--Haste and Shield--are going to be nerfed (quite possibly into uselessness). Spellsword is going into the DMG they say (which implies that the powers that be think the archetype is an important part of D&D) but if it's the spellsword from Tome and Blood, it's barely worth taking. I expect playing a fighter/wizard in 3.5e will be like playing a bard without bardic abilities or social skills. Not promising at all.