You primary stat should never be lower than 18

[JohnSnow]

Hellfire Blood is an explicit fix. Tiefling Warlocks are all viable, thanks to that specific feat.

True, but that's a feat you can't spend on something else. Yes, it helps to make Star Pact and Infernal Pact Tiefling Warlocks viable, but it also helps to max out the fire-focused Tiefling wizard.

And it does nothing for the Star and Infernal Encounter powers available at level 1.

In other words it helps sometimes...but not always.

Right, there are two: 16/14/14/13/10/8 and 16/16/13/11/10/8.

Cheers, -- N

Nonsense.

Any build that gets you a 16 in at least one stat (after racial bonuses) means you're no more than 1 point "behind" the two character builds you mentioned. That's true of every single array listed on pages 17-18.

In exchange you might end up with a better will, ref, fort, or more hit points (and healing surges). For instance, a character who doesn't use strength for attack might choose to dump strength and go with a good constitution score (for more hit points and more healing surges).

Chances are good that, barring circumstances where people want both an attack stat and its corresponding defense stat (as strength AND CON), most people will choose to have at least a couple of 10's (or even 8) in their bottom 3 scores.

Of course, certain character concepts require one to take feats that have stat prerequisites, which can alter the "obvious" choice.

I guess I just don't think it's nearly as cut and dried as you do.

 

[evilbob]

Then we're discussing different things: my position is that you need an 18 in your primary attack stat after racial modifiers.

Oh, ok - I see. Yes, I agree with you there.

 

[JohnSnow]

Then we're discussing different things: my position is that you need an 18 in your primary attack stat after racial modifiers.

Cheers, -- N

So, only humans and dragonborn should be fighters then?

Or are you saying that the only viable build for other fighters is to waste their points buying an 18? Except that wasn't one of your two arrays.

So, based on your self-imposed restrictions, the "dwarf fighter" is nonviable. Clearly, they should only be clerics, paladins, or warlocks (star or infernal). Which means the designers were bonkers.

So, am I interpreting you correctly?

 

[Branduil]

So, only humans and dragonborn should be fighters then?

Or are you saying that the only viable build for other fighters is to waste their points buying an 18? Except that wasn't one of your two arrays.

So, based on your self-imposed restrictions, the "dwarf fighter" is nonviable. Clearly, they should only be clerics, paladins, or warlocks (star or infernal). Which means the designers were bonkers.

So, am I interpreting you correctly?

A Dwarf Fighter with

Str 18
Con 15
Dex 10
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 8

is perfectly viable.

 

[Arbitrary]

Except you will always be behind the curve, because everyone else -- even the guys who started right, with an 18 in their primary attack stat -- will be doing the same exact thing.

You'll always be inferior to them, with no way to ever catch up.

Cheers, -- N

This is an excellent argument as to why to not roll for stats in 4th edition but I don't think it is nearly as big of a deal with a point buy system as long as the decisions being made with stat distribution or race still have a purpose.

edit - That dwarf is going to get punished by his low Reflex defense constantly.

 

[Branduil]

This is an excellent argument as to why to not roll for stats in 4th edition but I don't think it is nearly as big of a deal with a point buy system as long as the decisions being made with stat distribution or race still have a purpose.

edit - That dwarf is going to get punished by his low Reflex defense constantly.

Possibly, but if he goes sword-and-board, and takes Lightning Reflexes, he can minimize the pain. There's no feat he can take to get back the +1 to attack and damage.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

*snip* Now, that doesn't mean that a 16 in your attack stat is not viable, but it does have a big impact. I think a 16 can work fine for AC attacks, because you can use a sword to make up for the loss of hit. It's a bit dicier for base defense attacks - many people have noted that the KotS half-elf "pew pew" cleric is pretty crappy in actual play because +3 translates into rarely hitting.

I agree with the snipped section of your post completely.

However, the 16 really will work just as badly or just as good for a melee cleric as a 16 for a pewpew cleric, as the +3 is going to just about cancel out (or maybe just take you over cancelling out, by about .25) on the average for enemies. Its even worse if the cleric doesn't take the proficiency for swords and ends up with a +2 weapon. The other defenses are about 3 points lower than AC (in actuality, fortitude is closer to 1 or 2 lower and reflex and will are closer to 3 or more lower). That is just an average of course, and there are a ton of enemies that contradict this, but the trend is definately something to consider.

 

[mlooney]

A Dwarf Fighter with

Str 18
Con 15
Dex 10
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 8

is perfectly viable.

Right up until he fights some that attacks reflex.

 

[Mengu]

I think we have 3 camps in this thread. Some claiming you need an 18 before racial modifiers, some claiming you need an 18 after racial modifiers, and some saying neither.

I'm of the opinion, majority of the time, you will want an 18 after racial modifiers. The standard array, as well as all the race/class selection advice in the PHB support that this was by design.

And I think the two stat arrays Nifft posted (16/14/14/13/10/8 and 16/16/13/11/10/8) are the ones we will see most frequently, though the first one should be more popular since it doesn't waste any points. It could easily have been the standard array, and no one would be complaining about it.

Here are the other stat options I came up with:
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 16

This is what I would go for. gives you a good starting healing surge, more surges from the beginning, qualifies you for heavier armor, and the good Con bonus can also give you a nice Dire Radiance or Hellish Rebuke attack.

 

[JohnSnow]

A Dwarf Fighter with

Str 18
Con 15
Dex 10
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 8

is perfectly viable.

Oh, I agree completely. But, IMO, so is one with:

Str 17
Con 17
Dex 11
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

However, neither of those distributions:

(18, 13, 13, 10, 10, 8) or;
(17, 15, 12, 11, 10, 8),

nor any of the other variants was deemed "correct" by Nifft. So clearly, his argument has to give at either:

How many arrays are "correct," or;

Whether you have to have an 18 in your attack stat to make a viable character.

Personally, I think he's wrong on both counts. But that's just my opinion.