You reap what you sow - GSL.

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Psion said:
AFAIAC, that doesn't really matter. Submitting material as OGC, or not, is entirely up to the contributor. No slight there.

Contributing OGC, which is de facto telling the public at large "you can use this stuff", and then calling people out for taking them up on their offer, is what is objectionable.

No, not really. There's a big difference between legal license and being considerate. It's takes an empty or ill-defined ethical compass to equate them exactly.

I'll give to an example. I box. I've signed an injury waiver. If I get hit hard, I'm not allowed to take legal action. I have agreed that I'm okay with being punched in the face.

If someone who was obviously a better boxer at the gym (and there are a lot of them) beat the living crap out of me, it would have to be pretty severe for it to be actionable. But the guy would still be a jerk.

Don't be a jerk.
 

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eyebeams said:
Don't be a jerk.

I like that example. It's easy to apply.

Even when they signed the injury waiver (declared content OGC), but still don't want to get badly beaten (don't want all their OGC reprinted wholesale, either for profit or free), someone is a jerk for badly beating them.
 

MongooseMatt said:
Yeah, they did - at least, well enough for publishers of our sizes.
Not exactly the place for it, but thank you, thank you, thank you for the Pocket Conan.

Thank you.

Oh, and in case I forgot, thank you.
 

Erik Mona said:
This strikes me as a particularly 20th century way of looking at open systems. I can certainly understand the impulse that might inspire WotC to feel like they were being cheated out of something by a company that simply reprinted their core system, but the fact of the matter is that Mongoose sold, at best, 10,000 copies of that book. Vs. the "Real" Player's Handbook, which probably moved something like 350,000 units. Sure, that easily seen as cutting into WotC's pie, but it's really not that significant a chunk of their expected profits for the book, and surely most of Mongoose's audience owned the real Player's Handbook anyway.

In fact, for a customer to have such an exotic D&D fetish as to A) know about and B) purchase the Pocket Player's Handbook the chances are very high that the buyer owns not just the Player's Handbook, but probably the entire core rules and a brace of expensive hardcover support volumes direct from Wizards of the Coast.

I'm not sure that a lack of sales is a good justification for reprinting and selling the core system. It seems like your argument is that it is acceptable as long as the sales of the book is under a specific thresehold.

It think it would also create a problematic system for the RPG market if every publisher felt free to do their own Player's Handbook that isn't significantly different from the PHB. I think that wholesale reprinting is against the spirit of the OGL.

I'd contrast the Mongoose book with books like Arcana Unearthed and Mutants & Masterminds. The latter are effectively players handbooks that bring unique creations to the D20 realm.

I guess my hang up is that if all users of the OGL made their products free then I wouldn't care if one product was a replication of another product, but that isn't the case. A lot, if not most, D20 material is linked to a purchase of some sort. It would be unfair to publishers to have a product they create be duplicated wholesale in a product made by a competing publisher who didn't have to pay the development costs of the product.

Basically, I think the nature of the RPG market is such that products should be unique in content, not just in packaging. Overall, I don't think this hurts the community to put this type of restriction on creators. The cost of making a profit off of a system that is already established should be that you bring something new to the system.

I do think it would be harsh if the OGL restricted republication of stat blocks to a limited degree, but could 3rd party publishers as a whole be trusted to not try to weasel around any type of reprinting policy that is anything short of "don't reprint anything"?

I think the 4E Monster Manual stat blocks represent such a small faction of what any given monster's stat block could be, that it would be a great opportunity if every 3rd party publishers made their own stat blocks rather than reprinting them.

This is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.chrispramas.com/2008/06/heres-product-we-wont-be-doing.html

Definately a potentially cool product: A deck of cards with the different powers on them.

But is it really Green Ronin's place to make that product? Unlike some other game aids, this would be pretty specific to 4E PHB.

If GR put this product out it would limit WOTC's ability to make and sell a product like it. It would also raise the question of why GR should be able to do it but not other 3rd party publishers.

Assuming that the use of "cards" isn't disallowed under the GSL, I think it would add more to the community if GR put out a deck with powers they created along with some generic cards that could be filled out with the stats to PHB powers.
 
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FraserRonald said:
Not exactly the place for it, but thank you, thank you, thank you for the Pocket Conan.

Thank you.

Oh, and in case I forgot, thank you.

Which brings up an interesting point -- if WOTC *really* hated the pocket PHB, they could -- using the economies of scale and the fact they could print material Mongoose could not -- have blown it out of the water with their own 'streamlined' handbook at a lower price and with higher production values. They knew, thanks to Mongoose, there was a market for such things, but did nothing to take advantage of it themselves. However, many other publishers did -- look at the 'Stingy Gamer' products from GOO, or Hero Sidekick. "Cheap rules" is a good idea, and the fact WOTC never jumped on that market segment is no one's fault but theirs.
 

eyebeams said:
Of course not. But you can hold him *responsible* for his *response* to those decisions.
Please favour us: what exactly was his response to those decisions? What did he say to those who made the decisions? I don't think you know any more than I do.
 

Lizard said:
Which brings up an interesting point -- if WOTC *really* hated the pocket PHB, they could -- using the economies of scale and the fact they could print material Mongoose could not -- have blown it out of the water with their own 'streamlined' handbook at a lower price and with higher production values. They knew, thanks to Mongoose, there was a market for such things, but did nothing to take advantage of it themselves. However, many other publishers did -- look at the 'Stingy Gamer' products from GOO, or Hero Sidekick. "Cheap rules" is a good idea, and the fact WOTC never jumped on that market segment is no one's fault but theirs.
Eh, they would have had a very hard time getting that through the decision-makers I think. Sure, they could use it as a club against another publisher, but there would be some product cannibalization there.
 

Fifth Element said:
Please favour us: what exactly was his response to those decisions? What did he say to those who made the decisions? I don't think you know any more than I do.

I'm referring to how he approached this vis a vis telling other people they shouldn't complain about their stuff being wiki'd, which is something he would have to discuss publicly, given that it relates to a public position. He didn't. If you really don't get that somebody who just rode off of producing untransferable open content should explain how that jibes with a demand that others quietly part with transferable open content, then there's no productive discussion to be had.

I will say that people rising up to defend Mearls from some sort of assumed libel are totally missing the mark, since observing that he wasn't bringing unvarnished brilliance to the argument is not the same as saying he sucks or something.
 

eyebeams said:
I'm referring to how he approached this vis a vis telling other people they shouldn't complain about their stuff being wiki'd
My point is, he may very well have said the very same thing to the Malhavoc decision makers. We simply don't know. We don't know what he did. We seem to be jumping to conclusions here. Let's stick to what we know.

Mr. Mearls stated publicly that he thought all OGC should be freely available. We have no evidence whatsoever that he ever did anything in his capacity as a game designer to contradict that.

eyebeams said:
If you really don't get that somebody who just rode off of producing untransferable open content should explain how that jibes with a demand that others quietly part with transferable open content, then there's no productive discussion to be had.
You continue to miss the point. We don't know if he had any influence in the decision-making for the OGC declaration. We can assume things, but we need to realize they're only assumptions.

eyebeams said:
I will say that people rising up to defend Mearls from some sort of assumed libel are totally missing the mark, since observing that he wasn't bringing unvarnished brilliance to the argument is not the same as saying he sucks or something.
No, you're missing the point. I am arguing against the assertion that his words should be taken at less than face value because of something about which we have no real knowledge.

Mr. Mearls is an ENWorld member and he posts here. We do not ascribe motives to other posters. We should not assume things about him and then judge him based on those assumptions.
 

That's right. We should PM him this thread and tell him to come answer us if he has time. Monte too ;)

Easiest way to get a straight answer on things.
 

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