You roll a 3...

FWIW, I'd probably ALSO do an alt version of Brian Damage where he WAS the stereotypical dumb brute with a 3 Int.

Or instead of the Dudley Doright Paladin, another model for a low-Int build would be a Cleric, Shaman or other full divine caster along the lines of St. Joseph of Cupertino.
 

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Well some might say the characters in D&D are trying to become heroes....and not starting off that way. So maybe it depends on how you run the game or what edition you are playing?
Well, even so, wouldn't it be nice if everyone had the same chance to become a hero instead of some characters being disadvantaged from the start due to pure luck? (No, don't answer: I get it that you disagree ;))
Some might also say that point-buy is just another method and is not any better or worse than rolling.
The methods are better or worse depending on the kind of game you prefer.
According to you.
Ah, time to dig up a quote, I guess? :)
I'm quite sure I could find one that supports my view in every edition of D&D.

For 4e I don't even need a quote: Just looking at the book titles of the latest sourcebooks for players tells it all: They are all titled 'Heroes of something or other'. I wonder why? ;)
 

The hero is the guy -- or gal --that didn't end up a mouldering corpse at the bottom of a pit impaled on kobold punji sticks. The hero is the one that, through a combination of luck and grit and talent, find his fortune and fame and glory
Yeah, except some need more luck than others if you're rolling for stats, and/or (which can be even worse) hit points.

See, I think, there's nothing wrong if there are players who are interested in the challenge of trying to play and survive with a character that has consistently bad stats. But why isn't this simply optional? Just use point-buy and note that it's fine to not spend all the points. Shouldn't that make everyone happy?

Why force players who aren't interested in the challenge to use rolled stats? Let everyone start on a level play field. If the 'pro' players want to start with a handicap: let them.

I think even players who like to roll for their stats are happier to play a character for which they rolled good stats (assuming a game where the stats are actually relevant to determine success).

See, I've played characters with rolled stats for a lot of years. I agree that it's pretty cool if a character that started off bad manages to survive for a long time against all odds. But after the character's inevitable demise, don't you you ever wonder what might have become of her if she had been just a bit more lucky at the beginning of her career?

For a character that you intend to play for many years to come, it's just too much of a gamble for my taste to start with stats that are below average.

This wasn't as much of a problem when I started playing rpgs and I was still at school: I had plently of time and we played almost every day. Who cared if it took ten attempts (and thus characters) until I finally managed to survive to reach level 2?

These days I want to make the most of the precious time left for playing rpgs, so, yes, these days I prefer to _start_ playing a hero. Let someone else cast out the rats in the village tavern's cellar, I was born for greater things!

Aside from the question of rolling for stats: How many groups start at levels higher than one? Quite a few, I should think! And the reason is the reason I gave: They want to play heroes!

Starting from level 1 (or even level 0) is fun for a few times but eventually it can get old. Particularly if you want to see a campaign through to the end, you have to do something to even the odds.
Naturally, the reverse can be true, too: If you've played high-level heroes for a couple of years, you may find it's fun to play a nobody again. But the novelty wears off quickly - at least for me.

Looking beyond D&D and level-based rpg systems, I feel the best possible system is Ars Magica's troupe style: Even in the course of a single adventure you get to play lowly grogs, ordinary covenfolk, inspiring knights, noblewomen, merchants, and archmages - whatever strikes your fancy.

D&D is just not set up that way (despite some groups that may be playing it similarly).
 

Wisdom. I had a lot of fun roleplaying a ranger with a very low wisdom. I decided to simulate low wisdom by always going with the very first thing that popped into my head for each decision. This resulted in some awfully good outcomes and a lot of spectacularly bad ones.
 

Wisdom. I had a lot of fun roleplaying a ranger with a very low wisdom. I decided to simulate low wisdom by always going with the very first thing that popped into my head for each decision. This resulted in some awfully good outcomes and a lot of spectacularly bad ones.
Did that improve your intuition? Did you end up making better first calls than before?
 

Why force players who aren't interested in the challenge to use rolled stats?

I think this is an important question the DM needs to ask himself, especially if the players are friends and/or it's clear the players don't want to roll for stats. In the end, we should play in a way that maximizes everyone's fun, right?
 

Flatus Maximus said:
I think this is an important question the DM needs to ask himself, especially if the players are friends and/or it's clear the players don't want to roll for stats. In the end, we should play in a way that maximizes everyone's fun, right?

Right, but this is an agreement reached beforehand, not after one doesn't like what they get. Again, I'm all for groups applying methods that mitigate some of the perceived problems with randomness in chargen. I just happen to know from long experience that randomness adds far more than it takes away from everyone's fun.
 

Wisdom. I had a lot of fun roleplaying a ranger with a very low wisdom. I decided to simulate low wisdom by always going with the very first thing that popped into my head for each decision. This resulted in some awfully good outcomes and a lot of spectacularly bad ones.

"LEEEEEEEEROY JENKINS!"





(IOW, sounds like a fun PC.)
 

Right, but this is an agreement reached beforehand, not after one doesn't like what they get. Again, I'm all for groups applying methods that mitigate some of the perceived problems with randomness in chargen. I just happen to know from long experience that randomness adds far more than it takes away from everyone's fun.

Randomness in char gen (and preferably not just in stats), is more fun if the players are approaching the game as, "See what I get, and see how much fun I can have with what it is." Point buy, or at least some form of more choice/less random, is more fun if the players are approaching the game as, "I have this idea for a character, and I want to have a shot at seeing it realized in play."

Complicating the issue are:

1. How long it takes to make a character.
2. How invested you are in a particular character making it through all or most of the story.
3. How much you value background and indepth characterization versus thinking on your feet.

And so on. Depending on your preferences on those complications and your system, you may drift to more or less random, possibly preferring to deal with a complication that goes counter to your preferences to get other things you want. But any thing can be worked around, as long as you solve the main issue of "mainly preset character idea" versus "see what happens."

This of course, does not even delve into people who really want a mixture of both, and who tend to really appreciate lifepath systems, or similar, where what happens in char gen is a combination of things out of your control and key choices made that set the possibilities for future direction--almost like playing char gen as a game before play. Travellor, and its chance to die in char gen, is the poster child for this group. ;)
 

I do see a place for both point buy and random roll in rpgs. It depends on the game and the type of game are attracted to. The old James Bond RPG by Victory Games is one of my all-time favorite games, and it uses a point-buy character generation system. I think it fits that game very well--it fits that game universe very well.

Another game I love--probably one of the best rule systems I've ever seen--is the old WEG D6 Star Wars game (not talking about the d20 version, here). It doesn't use a point-buy, per se, but it does use a system where characters (usually--there are exceptions) all get the same amount of "resources" to put into their stats.

Those games have these bigger than life, archetypical heros and villians in them: Darth Vader, James Bond, Luke Skywalker, Ernst Stravo Blofeld, etc.

And, I can see someone wanting to play their D&D game in that fashion.

I've played that type of game and enjoyed them immensely (ran a 7 year Star Wars game back in the 90's that everybody still talks about).

But, if I have my rathers, my taste runs towards random roll. If there's ever a choice, I'll typically choose random roll.

I like the grit random roll brings to a game. I like how characters that you would have never created through point-buy become favorites and live on in our memory of memorable RPG characters we've encountered.

There's just more "life" in a random roll character than what I usually find in a game that uses point-buy.
 

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