"Your Class is Not Your Character": Is this a real problem?

I think the clearest take-away from this thread is that the text of the game does not create a shared expectation. Perhaps it was intended to, or perhaps not, but evidentally it fails to do so in practice.

Accordingly, I think "playing within the rules in good faith" in this case requires asking the DM outright whether they expect characters to adhere to the class descriptions in the book. Some DMs think the default is "yes" and some DMs think the default is "no", so asking is the only way to be sure.

I wouldn't go that far. I mentioned Jedi and people got upset at the example. Yet you are saying there is no shared expectation. Everyone else in this thread seems to agree that there is a shared expectation that Jedi aren't a thing in D&D.

I think people also inherently know when they want something that is outside the rules. Now, many of them might assume that there would be no problem with it, but I think most people would still bring up their changes to the table.


And, yet, both the DMG and Eberron show that fluff is mutable.

And where is it written that the stuff some call 'hard rules' or 'mechanics' are not allowed to be changed?
 

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The player sits down and says 'my character is a Jedi from the Star Wars Universe'. I will use X class to represent them but their character is that they are a Jedi.

The table says, no we are playing D&D and our game doesn't have Jedi. So the player says 'well it's my character and you can't decide who they are'.
This is a completely separate issue. I recently started a new campaign. I explained to my players that the campaign would draw strongly on Arthurian legends and Celtic myths of the Fae.

The bard whose magic came not from his class but from being half-Fae? Not a problem, and an excellent thematic addition to the campaign.

The Oath of Vengeance paladin who was just the Punisher with a different name? Problem, despite being 100% in line with the PHB.
 

This is a completely separate issue. I recently started a new campaign. I explained to my players that the campaign would draw strongly on Arthurian legends and Celtic myths of the Fae.

The bard whose magic came not from his class but from being half-Fae? Not a problem, and an excellent thematic addition to the campaign.

The Oath of Vengeance paladin who was just the Punisher with a different name? Problem, despite being 100% in line with the PHB.

So you changed some rules and now some character concepts are possible and others are not.

Sounds right to me?

(Though a character who is actually The Punisher transported to fantasy land (like the Jedi example) would be outside the PHB rules. Also, depending on which Punisher the player is drawing from, the Oath of Vengeance will be close or not too. Personally I have a rule of 'no evil characters'. I think this is encouraged by the PHB though not explicitly a rule so I make it one. In this case it would limit the interpretation to a softer Punisher.)
 

I wouldn't go that far. I mentioned Jedi and people got upset at the example. Yet you are saying there is no shared expectation. Everyone else in this thread seems to agree that there is a shared expectation that Jedi aren't a thing in D&D.

I think people also inherently know when they want something that is outside the rules. Now, many of them might assume that there would be no problem with it, but I think most people would still bring up their changes to the table.

I'm asserting that the debate in this thread shows that there is no shared expectation that characters adhere to the class descriptions in the book.

I don't think the objection to Jedi stems from their failure to adhere to class descriptions. Rather, I think the objection to Jedi is a belief that sci-fi/sci-fantasy elements usually aren't appropriate in medieval fantasy settings.

Considering the disagreement in this thread regarding how far away from the class descriptions one can venture before a concept becomes "outside the rules", I can't agree with your statement that people "inherently know when they want something that is outside the rules". How could they know if there no consensus on where the line is?
 

I'm asserting that the debate in this thread shows that there is no shared expectation that characters adhere to the class descriptions in the book.

I think maybe there should be such a shared expectation at a given table, even if there's not a global one. If (to use the going example) one person wants to bring in a literal Jedi (as opposed to a character that looks like a D&D character but does Jedi Stuff) and everyone else wants to play something more like standard D&D characters, both mechanically and fluffily, there's probably a disconnect that needs to be resolved before play.

I think if everyone is clear, the people at a given table can probably work something out, and I suspect most of the time in the real world things wouldn't get quite so heated as they do here, sometimes. Heck, if @ad_hoc or @Maxperson is running (to pick people who've seemed on kinda the other side from me) and they're clear how they see changing text as changing rules, I can probably figure out something I can get my head into and play. I might be the most boring player at the table with the most boring character in the party if @Sabathius42 is running, and I'd be OK with that, too.
 

This is the issue with DnD in the 5e era... the "era" its released in lol.

Unlike being cast for a role, your casting the "role" to your personal "wants".

Be whatever you want, cast yourself appropriately. If you want to be a serial killer, then you do it...if you want uphold goodness, then you do. Because its what you want.

If your role is to up hold the tenets of purity and goodness, and then you want to go become a serial killer... ok, YOU MIGHT HAVE MISCAST, YOURSELF.
 

I wouldn't go that far. I mentioned Jedi and people got upset at the example. Yet you are saying there is no shared expectation. Everyone else in this thread seems to agree that there is a shared expectation that Jedi aren't a thing in D&D.

I think people also inherently know when they want something that is outside the rules. Now, many of them might assume that there would be no problem with it, but I think most people would still bring up their changes to the table.

And where is it written that the stuff some call 'hard rules' or 'mechanics' are not allowed to be changed?


People got upset because the Jedi, as you presented it, is such a far extreme to the discussion that it is nearly a parody of the discussion.

The issue being discussed is the idea that you class is an immutable aspect of character. To use an example featuring barbarians:

John brings a barbarian to the table named Ragnar. Ragnar's personality could be summed up thusly "Ragnar hate fancy talky man, Ragnar will kill talky man with bare hands, Ragnar not even wear stupid armor because Ragnar strong. Strong always kill weak."

To a different table, we have Fred bringing a barbarian named Clement the Third of Agnor. Clement is a knight of the realm, wears armor and carries a shield with his family crest. He is well spoken, educated (though more interested in matters of honor and battle than scholarly pursuit) and fights like a demon when combat is engaged.

Under the theory that "your class is your character", Clement is being played wrong. Barbarians are not supposed to be well-spoken characters who wear armor and care about honor. But, people point out, reflavoring the class to fit into this other mold is not difficult, and showcases the character they want better than making Clement a paladin or fighter.

Your Jedi example is more similiar to bringing up, "but what if the player wants to play Jerry Sienfield, stand up comic from New York City."

That has nothing to do with the actual discussion, it is a huge stretch to even see how it could apply to the idea of reflavoring a class or a concept to get the character the person wants.

Like the example earlier of the Rogue who was an ordained priest of a god. That is playing against type for both a holy man and a rogue, defying the expectations of the class and the concept, but it is a coherent character in the fiction who makes perfect sense.

That is the discussion, not whether or not this rule or that rule should be inviolable. Especially since some of the details are most definitely meant to be broken. Just flipping to the page on Elves I see "Most elves dwell in small forest villages hidden in the trees"

Except for the Forgotten Realms where they have kingdoms and massive cities.
Or Dark Sun where there are no forests, and elves are thieving sand dwellers.
Or Eberron where elves live on an island and worship their undead ancestors.
Heck, or two pages over where they talk about the Drow, who are elves, and live underground.

So, if even something as basic as "where do elves live" is mutable, why does my monk have to hail from a monastery? Why does my cleric have to be doe-eyed and naive about the world? Why does my rogue have to be greedy and know criminal elements?

There are details that can be changed, that can be seen from another perspective. If you want to say that playing a cleric who was a jaded drug user and smuggler who was granted a god's power when snowed in a humble monastery and conscripted to serve a god of justice is "changing the rules" then go ahead I guess, but you are putting rules where none exist.
 

People got upset because the Jedi, as you presented it, is such a far extreme to the discussion that it is nearly a parody of the discussion.

That's exactly the point. To find something everyone would agree was a step too far. So we can all agree that there are limits, here is an example of one (which, of course, someone argued against anyway).

This will be the last time I explain this.
 

Heck, if @ad_hoc or @Maxperson is running (to pick people who've seemed on kinda the other side from me) and they're clear how they see changing text as changing rules, I can probably figure out something I can get my head into and play. I might be the most boring player at the table with the most boring character in the party if @Sabathius42 is running, and I'd be OK with that, too.

Let's be clear - I never said that changing rules is a bad thing.

I have gotten the feeling that some people who have been getting very upset with me about this are putting intentions to me that I do not represent.
 

That's exactly the point. To find something everyone would agree was a step too far. So we can all agree that there are limits, here is an example of one (which, of course, someone argued against anyway).

This will be the last time I explain this.
man I like how you had to reach all the way into a completely different genre (and franchise!) to find a "step too far".

FWIW swordmage in 4e felt like a Jedi, at least in terms of combat abilities.
Except that while all Samurai were nobles, not all nobles were Samurai. Training made the Samurai, not the nobility.
okay hang on, it was possible for someone of low birth to become a samurai. this was most notably accomplished by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who also notably, and controversially, ended this upward mobility.

ficitonal examples of samurai who weren't nobles would include Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai (note that it's seven samurai, not six samurai and some weirdo fighter), and hell I'd also include dude from Yojimbo, like he's regarded as a samurai but iirc he's never really given the respect his position would give him.
 

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