Your money or your life?
- Thread starter Jeff Wilder
- Start date
No. It really doesn't. You see, *if* the dragon isn't retarded, then it knows its actions are an amplified version of throwing rocks at a hornet's nest. Unless, of course, the PC's gear isn't reasonably replaceable, in which case losing gear=functionally dead PC and they might as well go down fighting.
Out of curiosity, what *did* you expect to happen when you stated out the encounter?
I'm done with this thread.
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Jeff Wilder
First Post
With thanks to Janx, here's what I've sent to my players:
Here are things that I should have made explicit a long time ago. Think of this as my "Metagame Contract" with my players. Please feel free to comment or suggest changes.
Although I edited it, I stole the idea for this and parts of it wholesale from a post online. Other DMs should feel free to steal it from me and edit it (or not) for their campaigns.
* The DM is never -- *ever* -- playing "DM vs. Player."
* Some encounters will not be winnable through combat.
* Sometimes the PCs will have to run to survive.
* Retreat will usually, but not always, be possible.
* Sometimes the PCs will have to surrender to survive.
* Surrender by PCs will usually, but not always, be honored by enemies.
* Sometimes the PCs will be insulted and even humiliated by enemies.
* The DM is not out to kill PCs. The DM dislikes killing PCs.
* PCs can die. Bad luck, bad tactics, foolish behavior, and even fair fights can kill PCs.
* Cool and heroic actions will usually not count as bad tactics or foolish behavior.
* Good storytelling involves setbacks, and those setbacks can sometimes be very serious.
* Good storytelling also involves PCs bouncing back stronger from serious setbacks.
* The ongoing goal for the campaign is good storytelling.
* The end goal for the campaign is success and heroism for the PCs.
Here are things that I should have made explicit a long time ago. Think of this as my "Metagame Contract" with my players. Please feel free to comment or suggest changes.
Although I edited it, I stole the idea for this and parts of it wholesale from a post online. Other DMs should feel free to steal it from me and edit it (or not) for their campaigns.
* The DM is never -- *ever* -- playing "DM vs. Player."
* Some encounters will not be winnable through combat.
* Sometimes the PCs will have to run to survive.
* Retreat will usually, but not always, be possible.
* Sometimes the PCs will have to surrender to survive.
* Surrender by PCs will usually, but not always, be honored by enemies.
* Sometimes the PCs will be insulted and even humiliated by enemies.
* The DM is not out to kill PCs. The DM dislikes killing PCs.
* PCs can die. Bad luck, bad tactics, foolish behavior, and even fair fights can kill PCs.
* Cool and heroic actions will usually not count as bad tactics or foolish behavior.
* Good storytelling involves setbacks, and those setbacks can sometimes be very serious.
* Good storytelling also involves PCs bouncing back stronger from serious setbacks.
* The ongoing goal for the campaign is good storytelling.
* The end goal for the campaign is success and heroism for the PCs.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
Yes, you've made it clear that you feel that way. Thank you. Hopefully I've made it as clear that I disagree?
Are you a DM, BTW?
I expected the PCs to escape (one of them, at least), negotiate, surrender, or die.
I considered literally dozens -- okay, literally several -- of possible ways they could end up using the encounter to the benefit of the group (like pulling a Martin Riggs, for example).
What I didn't expect was the players to value their PCs' stuff over their PCs' lives. Live and learn. Now it's explicit that I don't expect that. Hopefully that will take care of the problem.
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Not if the DM doesn't tell them to expect something unusual like this. (It's unusual to get more wealth than normal.)
This isn't using the core assumptions of DnD. That shouldn't be a bad thing, except the way 3.x was balanced, that would seriously nerf the characters. There were previous threads on issues like why PCs only spend money on combat items.
Thanee
First Post
That one sounds a bit too "railroady" to me.
It sounds like that when the PCs win in the end, it was all planned out and their actions were not responsible for it, just their "lack of stupid behaviour".
* The DM is aware of the importance of equipment and if equipment is lost there will be a fair chance to either get it back or get replacements.
Bye
Thanee
CharlesRyan
Adventurer
I'm sympathetic to your situation, and I think the way you've responded to advice on this thread is solid. But I think you're splitting hairs here in a way that's damaging both to your position in this discussion and perhaps to the solution you're trying to reach with your players.
As a GM, more than in any other social situation I can think of, you are disproportionately responsible for others' perceptions. Your players are highly dependent on you in forming their perceptions, so whether or not you intended them to react badly isn't really relevant. The point is that they did, and that, as GM, the solution to avoiding those reactions in the future is mostly in your hands.
I think it's definitely worth clarifying to your players that you did not intend to humiliate them or box them into a corner, just to preempt any potential bad feelings. That, along with the other things you've already discussed, will help set better expectations going forward.
But I think you also have to acknowledge, if only to yourself, that when players pop out of "character" mode and into "player" mode, they might longer see the situation as their characters against the dragon. They might, if only subconsciously, see it as them against you.
Are they right? Of course not. But I've had gaming groups break up over this phenomenon nonetheless. Avoiding that sometimes requires the GM to accept a higher level of responsibility in managing the perceptions and expectations of the group.
CharlesRyan
Adventurer
Really? It's railroady to have a goal?
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