Your Thoughts on the Heroization of D&D 3.x

[hong]

Everyone's guilty of that... except hong.

No, no, I'm pretty sure I've underestimated the scope of my genuis as well.


Hong "or genius, even" Ooi

 

[JoeGKushner]

In the end, the defining catchphrase of HERO is LEVELLESS effects-based modelling, and this is something that 3E supports to a far greater extent than previous versions of D&D. You are what you can do, as opposed to what you're called; d20 Modern takes this even further with its abstract stat-based classes that really are just building blocks for realising any character concept you can think of. Hence "creeping HEROization".

Fixed your statement for you.

With levels, D20, any iteration, will always be a step away from hero. Skill points, limits on skill levels, hit points, bab, and saving throws are too integral for a character.

While you could argue that starting point base is the same as levels, you'd be wrong. There is nothing preventing Hero characters from having wildly ranging skills and abilities that are not tied into their overall ability, like how much Body they can take or how much Speed they have.

 

[Doug McCrae]

HERO, like all point buy systems, presents the player with a tremendous number of options.

Although the amount of choice has certainly increased since 1st ed, the 3rd ed D&D player doesn't have anything like the power of the HERO player. He can choose race and class (as he always could), stats (if the GM's using point buy), skills and feats. And he can buy magic items if that's allowed.

If the rules for building your own magic items are allowed, coupled with being able to create your own class (Unearthed Arcana?) then the D&D player just might be closing in on the HERO player.

It's probably right that it's this way for a number of reasons. For one, heroes in fantasy fiction display a much more narrow range of powers and abilities than superheroes.

 

[Cam Banks]

I can understand the attempt to define what's being done with d20 as being HERO-like, but I think it's one of those comparisons that has more to do with clever semantics and analysis than anything that's actually happening.

If D&D were like HERO, I wouldn't be writing for it. HERO makes my face itch.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[hong]

With levels, D20, any iteration, will always be a step away from hero. Skill points, limits on skill levels, hit points, bab, and saving throws are too integral for a character.

And your point is...?

While you could argue that starting point base is the same as levels, you'd be wrong. There is nothing preventing Hero characters from having wildly ranging skills and abilities that are not tied into their overall ability, like how much Body they can take or how much Speed they have.

Tell me again where I said D&D == HERO.

All that levels do is introduce structure into what you can buy with what you have to spend. Whether this is a Good or a Bad Thing is a matter for another thread.

 

[hong]

It's probably right that it's this way for a number of reasons. For one, heroes in fantasy fiction display a much more narrow range of powers and abilities than superheroes.

Psst. HERO is more than just superheroes these days. In fact, Fantasy HERO might well be called the first stage in the creeping D&Dization of HERO....

 

[Psion]

- Want to build a swashbuckler? Fighter/rogue. Wilderness warrior? Fighter/barb, fighter/ranger, barb/ranger, and other permutations thereof.

- Want a nameless horror from the outer planes? Fiendish template, half-fiend template, pseudonatural template, paragon template....

- Want to make it bigger? Whack on a few class levels and/or racial HD.

Which are all neat, but none too like hero. In 3e, you are adding to structures and bins. That's not hero. Hero, you tweak one thing at a time.

- Want a custom spell? Epic spell seeds. (Okay, the implementation sucks, but it's the thought that counts.)

The one example that fits the Hero mold, and it sucks so bad nobody uses it (well, I wouldn't.)

 

[Cam Banks]

Psst. HERO is more than just superheroes these days. In fact, Fantasy HERO might well be called the first stage in the creeping D&Dization of HERO....

Now that I can agree with. Which is great, since then they can we their feet on Fantasy HERO before coming on over to d20. Right? Right? Sigh.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Psion]

Psst. HERO is more than just superheroes these days. In fact, Fantasy HERO might well be called the first stage in the creeping D&Dization of HERO....

Fantasy Hero was the edition of D&D I played between 2e and 3e.

 

[Psion]

Now that I can agree with. Which is great, since then they can we their feet on Fantasy HERO before coming on over to d20. Right? Right?

My group did. Why not?

The thing I found with Fantasy Hero, though, was that my most mathmatically challenged players in my group avoided playing spellcasters because they are intimidated or just plain don't get the power system.

This is not a problem I have in 3e/d20.