Your thoughts on the power of prestige classes

[MonkeyBoy]

mkletch:
"And I disagree with that. It is obvious from postings and articles by Monte Cook that the original intent was that PrC = organization. WotC destroyed this all on their own, so there is nobody to 'blame'. What we have (in official books) is a combination of organizations and 'stand-alone' characters."

I think I was less than clear in what I said.

I don't mean that PrCs should be divorced from organisations in any given campaign. What I meant was that the existance, name and nature of any organisation in a campaign is a decision for the DM, and as such should not be in the published / OGC PrC information.

If I want to associate a PrC with a specific organisation in my game, thats fine. But the organisation should be seperate from the mechanics of the class. (maybe an example of an organisation can be given in a box-out or something)

Similarly, racial restrictions shouldn't be attached to the class mechanics. If I want only elves to be arcane archers, thats fine - I can introduce the class' availability only through and to elves; job done.

Take an example, if a PrC is published for a given setting, and in that setting it makes sense for the class to be gnome only, and to be the royal and ancient order of the gnome musketeers (or whatever), I would simply like to see the mechanics for "Musketeer" presented, and then a note that in the "Gnomwurld" setting, this is for gnomes only, and they're royal and ancient...

If you want the PrC with the extra flavour, you have it. If you just fancy a musketeer PrC, its presented in the clearest to re-use gnome-free state. Everyone's happy?

By leaving these extra bits of baggage (that are best considered by the individual DM for the individual game, and are easy to add on) out of the mechanics, the class becomes essentially more "portable" to differing settings without modification.

But then, I'm a firm believer in a clear seperation of mechanics from "flavour" everywhere; it makes altering the flavour easier without having to explain changes you've made to the players.

All IMO, obviously.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

By definition people play one class over an other because they believe its abilities are better (cooler, more in line with their personality) than the other classes' abilities.

This is pure, unadulterated bunk. I'm sure that some people make their choice based only on which classes abilities are "better," but to extrapolate that to what "people" in general do is transparent nonsense. To say that it is true "by definition" is even worse nonsense.

What people do when they make any entertainment choice is based on their underlying aesthetic values and their moods of the moment. Those values cannot be confined to power fantasies (as any choice based only on one's character's abilties, i.e. powers, must be) but must take in the entirety of the character's nature.

Moreover, any presumption that anyone makes decisions based on what choice is objectively "best" requires that a best option exists, which is patently untrue given the situational and mood-based nature of entertainment choices.

So, in a word, bunk.

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

Generally - Prestige classes add flavor and "usually" are more powerful than the straight class for a particular niche.

Overall, a fighter is more versatile, good fighter. An order of the bow initiate is a GREAT archer, and a decent melee combatant.

Break their bow, and they are in a world of hurt. Break the fighter's bow, and they pull out their sword and are still kicking some serious ass.


Taren Nighteyes

 

[Nifft]

For PrCs, I prefer to use "Naked" attack bonus / save / skill level rather than "Base". "Naked" allows for Feats, ability scores and racial bonuses to have an effect, and lets players be more creative in meeting requirements.

-- Nifft

 

[jmucchiello]

For PrCs, I prefer to use "Naked" attack bonus / save / skill level rather than "Base". "Naked" allows for Feats, ability scores and racial bonuses to have an effect, and lets players be more creative in meeting requirements.

Base is usually chosen so you can control the minimum level to reach the PrC. 8 Ranks in X means you are 5th level at a minimum. Thus the PrC creator knows that a 3rd level foo is at least an 8th level character when he gives that 3rd level a special ability, he knows that ability is being given to an 8th level character at a minimum.

Edit: And even base saves are dangerous in this regard: Fort +6 as a requirement, what's the minimum? Well for a fighter it's around 7th level. For a Fighter/Ranger/Cleric its 3rd level. Never use Base saves for PrC requirements. BAB, skill ranks and can cast x level divine/arcane spells are safest.

 

[jmucchiello]

This is pure, unadulterated bunk. I'm sure that some people make their choice based only on which classes abilities are "better," but to extrapolate that to what "people" in general do is transparent nonsense. To say that it is true "by definition" is even worse nonsense.

You are not use the term better than I am. Most players (in my experience) tend toward a single archetype. They may play other types sometimes but by-and-large, they return to the "best" archetype for them.

Now, please re-evaluate the bunk-level of my post taking into account that best does not mean most powerful. You completely ignored my parenthetical "more in line with their personallities". It was there for a reason.

Joe

 

[jmucchiello]

I agree with Wulf, I think; PrCs should NOT have setting details in them. They are rules, and I want to be able to use them in MY setting as easily as possible, without needing to shove a specific organisation into it.

I agree but for a different reason. I don't understand a 10-level PrC for an organization. What organization is that homogeneous? Most organizations have members with diverse skills striving for a singular goal. Having every member of the organization be carbon copies of one another means that skills outside their skillset must be hired from outsiders. At least, that's how I see it. Even an assassin's guild would want it's guild members to have diverse set of killing abilities. The only similarity between guild members would be the "only kill when paid" kinds of restrictions.

 

[Nifft]

Base is usually chosen so you can control the minimum level to reach the PrC. 8 Ranks in X means you are 5th level at a minimum. Thus the PrC creator knows that a 3rd level foo is at least an 8th level character when he gives that 3rd level a special ability, he knows that ability is being given to an 8th level character at a minimum.

Edit: And even base saves are dangerous in this regard: Fort +6 as a requirement, what's the minimum? Well for a fighter it's around 7th level. For a Fighter/Ranger/Cleric its 3rd level. Never use Base saves for PrC requirements. BAB, skill ranks and can cast x level divine/arcane spells are safest.

Yup, I was going to mention the "multiclass" loophole for Base Saves, but I dislike BAB and Base Skill Ranks just as much.

If you want to force a character to be a specific level, put up a big sign saying "YOU MUST BE MORE EXPERIENCED THAN THIS STICK --> | TO JOIN OUR CLUB" and have a raw XP requirement.

If you want to force a character to have a specific skill set, it's silly to ignore Feats, ability & racial bonuses, etc. -- IMHO, Base requirements are just as meta-game as XP, but they're dishonest and therefore icky.

-- Nifft

 

[Tom Cashel]

With most PrCs you sacrifice variety for being really good at one (or two) things.

For instance: the Red Wizard PrC's Spell Power bonuses stack with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Feats. You end up with a character that has +8 to the save DCs for one school of magic, but at least two (and probably more) banned schools.

So, in answer to the question of whether PrCs make a character more or less powerful, I say YES.

 

[smetzger]

Prestige classes can be used by organization OR as a means of specialization. Sure some of the concepts fit well with organizations, but why would a someone who is really good with a bow ( OOBI ) HAVE to be part of an organization?

Maybe Monte did think of Prestige Classes as a way to differentiate between organizations, however, they can also be used as a means of specialization.