"You're a half elf? Really?" From the P.A. Podcasts

[tuxgeo]

Remember, though, that half-elves can grow facial hair. The most notable example of which is Tanis Half-Elven from Dragonlance, though we also see that in the 4e PHB's half-elf art.
< snip >

You're right. Thanks for the reminder; I had forgotten that part of the PHB. (GrumbleGrumbleStupidAgingMemoryGrumble)

 

[MarkB]

See, that's really setting dependent. Half the time relations between elves and humans seems to be cordial enough, to a point where it shouldn't be THAT hard for a half-elf to come to some kind of understanding. "I'll celebrate human holidays, but still take the elven ones off from work."

Half-orcs, on the other hand, not only look hideous, but their parents probably didn't, ah, get along. Lots of conflict there.

Even that is setting-specific. Not only do Eberron half-orcs breed true as already mentioned, there are also communities in the Shadow Marches where orcs, humans and half-orcs live amongst each other - so a character of mixed orc and human parentage could still have a perfectly ordinary upbringing.

Because most of the players who really enjoy roleplaying extrahuman, aloof, arrogant, mysterious, immortal (and pretentious) beings are off playing Masquerade.

That made my morning.

It was the "Listening to Wil Weaton using his fey step" line that I got stuck on.

 

[SSquirrel]

It was the "Listening to Wil Weaton using his fey step" line that I got stuck on.

Which now makes me picture "Wil Wheaton:Eladrin". Gamer stepping between realities to show up behind you, ready to roll his d20 to attack! heh

 

[Blair Goatsblood]

Regardless of the boundless opportunities for a half-elf to seem and act human (I think of as some milkmaid met the elf king in the dell or else the elf king replaced the human baby with a created being that looks mostly human but has an elf's blood, too much Poul Anderson)...

...I don't find it that grating if someone who pretends to be a half-elf for six hours a week in order to kill imaginary monsters and take their imaginary treasure or engage in imaginary drama with imaginary beings and also put's the effort of becoming a hobbyist lawyer/accountant into learning a game doesn't bother "imagining and getting into the head of the unique half-elven people"

 

[Hussar]

I don't understand why are you are angry over a half-human that looks and acts like a human. As far as I can tell, the only obvious physical trait that distinguishes half-elves from humans is their slightly pointy ears. It's not that far of a stretch to imagine that some half-elves don't have those for whatever reason.

More to the point; Race is something that can go hidden if nobody brings it up, and I would dare say knowing it is metagaming if the race isn't completely obvious. I played a changeling that never had a reason to change forms until he was being targeted by an assassin, the entire group had no idea he could do that because they thought he was a human until that point.

Don't get me wrong, I like Alien humanoids instead of humans in funny suits. Which is one of the reasons I don't like half-races in general, they shouldn't be able to breed in the first place.

Well, to be fair, as a Changeling that had never used his abilities, the whole point is to be just like the form you assume. I wouldn't assume that a doppleganger walks around announcing himself either.

But, your first part gets to the heart of it. If he looks human, acts human, and doesn't, in any meaningful way, distinguish himself as anything but human, why is he not human? What's the point?

Sorry I don't see playing a character as a grumpy drunk, crude big dumb person, or a short person as roleplaying a non-human. It's simply roleplaying a cliched stereotype that could equally apply to a human.

The "stereotypical" dwarf can include a strong work ethic, a bond to clan and hold, a practically unbreakable constitution, a strong sense of tradition and history, a hatred of elves, a love of gold and metalwork, an affinity for beer, and many other things. Most dwarf characters will have some of these features, but will probably vary quite a bit from the norm. Certainly some dwarves are grumpy drunks, but I would hardly consider that the epitome of good dwarven roleplaying.

Oh, totally agree. But, at the very least, it holds up a great big sign that says, "I'M A DWARF". It might be crude, it might be simplistic, but, at least it's there.

Roleplaying a half-orc is an entirely different kettle of fish. A crude big dumb dude with orc features is not likely to last long in human society unless he's the toughest guy around. A half-orc could just as easily be roleplayed as someone with very good manners, but a severe anger management problem. Or maybe the half-orc is a good natured oaf. Of course, he or she might be a brainy wizard.

Halflings are short, but that isn't much in the way of roleplaying. They can be hobbit-like, kender-like, or just about any way the player wants them to be.

To sum up, I think it's important to actually think about a character's race and background. I really don't see playing up a stereotype as being any better than simply playing a character as a human with pointy ears.

Like I said, at least the stereotype gives something of a hook. Sure, you should try to move beyond that, but, it gives a decent amount of groundwork to start from.

Regardless of the boundless opportunities for a half-elf to seem and act human (I think of as some milkmaid met the elf king in the dell or else the elf king replaced the human baby with a created being that looks mostly human but has an elf's blood, too much Poul Anderson)...

...I don't find it that grating if someone who pretends to be a half-elf for six hours a week in order to kill imaginary monsters and take their imaginary treasure or engage in imaginary drama with imaginary beings and also put's the effort of becoming a hobbyist lawyer/accountant into learning a game doesn't bother "imagining and getting into the head of the unique half-elven people"

Fair enough. If that's all you want out of gaming, then cool. Me, I want characters that actually have personalities. That are actually memorable. It just annoys the crap out of me when the only reason to pick a race is for the bonuses. "Oh, really? You're a ((Insert race here))" is, to me, a complete failure to role play on the part of the player.

Compare Omin to Ayofell (or however you spell Wil Weaton's character's name). Can you really say that Ayofell is not a memorable elf?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But, your first part gets to the heart of it. If he looks human, acts human, and doesn't, in any meaningful way, distinguish himself as anything but human, why is he not human? What's the point?

Maybe it's his deeds that are more than human rather than his personality. Someone can be physically different and accomplish different things. If you want to play a character that is way more nimble than a human can be, you play an elf of a halfling.

There are more ways to differentiate yourself than personality.

Oh, totally agree. But, at the very least, it holds up a great big sign that says, "I'M A DWARF". It might be crude, it might be simplistic, but, at least it's there.

It only holds up that sign because that's the way you think of dwarves. To someone not familiar with the Dwarven stereotype, it instead put's up a sign saying "I'm a alcoholic Scotsman who is a miner".

It raises the question, if you want to play this sort of character, why not just play a human? Dwarves don't offer anything that humans don't.

Like I said, at least the stereotype gives something of a hook. Sure, you should try to move beyond that, but, it gives a decent amount of groundwork to start from.

But why start with a stereotype? What if your dwarf doesn't fit the stereotypes at all? He is a Dwarven Wizard who spent all of his time studying magic from dusty tomes in a tower under a human mentor. He hasn't been underground in his life, has been taught proper manners, doesn't drink at all because he values intelligence and being sober. What can you do to make this character's race front and center? Especially in a game where 95% of the action is focused outward on things like "will the villain accomplish his evil plan", "can we stop the monsters from destroying the village", and "where can we find the artifact?"

And more importantly, how can you make your race front and center in a group with 6 different races without grandstanding or taking the focus off the group as a whole instead of specifically being about your own character.

Fair enough. If that's all you want out of gaming, then cool. Me, I want characters that actually have personalities. That are actually memorable. It just annoys the crap out of me when the only reason to pick a race is for the bonuses. "Oh, really? You're a ((Insert race here))" is, to me, a complete failure to role play on the part of the player.

He didn't say that the half-elf in question wouldn't have a memorable personality. He said that he didn't expect someone to spend all of their time trying to get into the head of the unique half-elf race.

As I mentioned in a previous post. I played a half-elf fighter/rogue back in second edition who had a unique and memorable personality. People remember him for that time that he took on a nasty enemy single-handed and saved the entire party from certain death. They remember him for the time they had to teach him not to steal from the party. They remember the time he had his hands cut off by a trap and they had to get a regenerate spell cast on him. They remember the time he used a Rod of Beguiling on a Drow Princess and forced her to wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment and then married her which caused all sorts of problems for the party.

Over and over again in TV Shows, non-humans are used mostly as a plot device to show us how human we really are. That's their entire reason to exist. Often, the idea of an episode is that despite being non-human, they are more like us than anyone knows.

Star Trek uses this in particular. They meet non-human races who have one aspect of their personality emphasized, but they are mostly human. Somehow they always find their similarities and get along just fine. Often because one member of their race sees beyond their exaggerated attributes and sees it from the human point of view.

Examples of this are rampant. Humans meet a race that keeps slaves and aren't remorseful about it. The humans show them what it means to be compassionate and they embrace the idea and become, basically....human. Showing that every race in the universe has human values at heart.

Compare Omin to Ayofell (or however you spell Wil Weaton's character's name). Can you really say that Ayofell is not a memorable elf?

Yes, Ayofell is a memorable elf. Omin is a memorable cleric. They just choose to concentrate on different things.

 

[Storminator]

Compare Omin to Ayofell (or however you spell Wil Weaton's character's name). Can you really say that Ayofell is not a memorable elf?

Wheaton has 20+ years of gaming and 30 years as an actor. Wouldn't it be shocking if he didn't play a memorable PC? I'm not sure Omin's player has the same chops.

PS

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Sorry I don't see playing a character as a grumpy drunk as roleplaying a non-human. It's simply roleplaying a cliched stereotype that could equally apply to a human. Certainly some dwarves are grumpy drunks, but I would hardly consider that the epitome of good dwarven roleplaying.

Please don't launch broadsides like that. Show some respect for your fellow gamers.

I happen to really enjoy roleplaying dwarves-- preferably in as shallow and cliche a way as possible-- and I very, very deeply and sincerely self-identify with them.

I am offended by the continued negative stereotyping of dwarves and the players who play them going on unchecked in this thread since the OP.

Particularly since you didn't include murderous bastard in your list of cliches. I may not have exactly pioneered the murderous bastard cliche, but I like to think I at least moved the art forward.

Respect.

If we use the example of Tanis Half-Elven, then the stereotype is being a whiny, wishy-washy p---y who worries about everything.

I'm not sure if there's a clear, consistent, and coherent policy around here on half-elves as there is for elves, but if there are any self-identifying whiny, wishy-washy p----s out there-- and let me be clear, I am definitely not suggesting that there are-- then they are probably hammering on that Report Post button right about now.

 

[Hussar]

Wheaton has 20+ years of gaming and 30 years as an actor. Wouldn't it be shocking if he didn't play a memorable PC? I'm not sure Omin's player has the same chops.

PS

Heh. That's true. Fair enough. But, compare Binwin to Omin then. Binwin pretty much screams Dwarf to me. Even if he is a bit of a stereotype.

Gonna chop up Majoru O's post out of order.

But why start with a stereotype? What if your dwarf doesn't fit the stereotypes at all? He is a Dwarven Wizard who spent all of his time studying magic from dusty tomes in a tower under a human mentor. He hasn't been underground in his life, has been taught proper manners, doesn't drink at all because he values intelligence and being sober. What can you do to make this character's race front and center? Especially in a game where 95% of the action is focused outward on things like "will the villain accomplish his evil plan", "can we stop the monsters from destroying the village", and "where can we find the artifact?"

I think I did mention playing against type earlier on. But, yes, I of course agree with you.

But, then, we can still portray our Dwarf wizard as a dwarf. Stroking his beard, mentioning his size, gruff voice, and the first time he meets other dwarves, you can play up the fact that he's playing against type. Nothing wrong with that. But, you can still make sure that the table knows you are a dwarf with a little bit of effort.

Maybe it's his deeds that are more than human rather than his personality. Someone can be physically different and accomplish different things. If you want to play a character that is way more nimble than a human can be, you play an elf of a halfling.

There are more ways to differentiate yourself than personality.

In a role playing game? Isn't personality the primary method for portraying your character? We don't actually describe ourselves very often in game, or at least my groups don't. After that initial description in the first session, that's usually about it. I would argue that personality is by far the primary way to distinguish your character. And, if you are not human, that part should be part of your personality.

It shouldn't be the only thing. Most definitely. I'm not saying you should go around telling everyone "I'm a ((insert race here))" every session. It should show up in how you speak, in the things you do, and in the way you react to things. It helps too if the GM gives you some lines to bounce off of as well. Putting another half elf in the bar for example helps. It doesn't have to be only the player.

As I mentioned in a previous post. I played a half-elf fighter/rogue back in second edition who had a unique and memorable personality. People remember him for that time that he took on a nasty enemy single-handed and saved the entire party from certain death. They remember him for the time they had to teach him not to steal from the party. They remember the time he had his hands cut off by a trap and they had to get a regenerate spell cast on him. They remember the time he used a Rod of Beguiling on a Drow Princess and forced her to wear a Helm of Opposite Alignment and then married her which caused all sorts of problems for the party.

Other than the race restrictions, why was he a half-elf? Was there anything in that character that distinguished him in any way from a human in how he was portrayed to the party?

If not, then he should have been a human IMO. Granted, in 2e, with its restrictive class/race rules, I can understand why he wasn't if that's the class you wanted to play. But, to me, that's just exacerbating the problem. It's probably why you see "Human that can see in the dark" so often in D&D.

 

[SSquirrel]

I'm not sure if there's a clear, consistent, and coherent policy around here on half-elves as there is for elves, but if there are any self-identifying whiny, wishy-washy pussies out there-- and let me be clear, I am definitely not suggesting that there are-- then they are probably hammering on that Report Post button right about now.

Another Tanis analogy, to go with the wishy-washy. Tanis Half-Elven = Charlie Brown with pointy ears. I don't know if any of the rest of the Heroes of the Lance match up against the Peanuts gang..maybe Tika and Freida, what with her naturally curly hair.