D&D 4E Yugoloths in 4E

[FourthBear]

And the Great Wheel predates Planescape, as it was presented as Greyhawk's cosmology in the Manual of Planes from the 1980s.

I believe the Great Wheel predates the Manual of Planes by a significant amount, as it was present in the original DMG, published in 1979 (I think).

Edit: Ooops, or was it the PH, as Dustyboots noted. Mea culpa.

 

[Shemeska]

From what I understand, no serious 3rd-party company was interested in the license

I heard otherwise, and eventually WotC apparently wasn't interested in selling it, but it's really a moot point at this stage.

And the Great Wheel predates Planescape, as it was presented as Greyhawk's cosmology in the Manual of Planes from the 1980s.

Believe me, I'm well aware of that. But most of the details, plots, specific locations and many of the notable individuals on the planes that you'll see in various 3e books came from the 2e Planescape line. Some of the 3e Manual of the Planes locales are taken virtually word for word from their 2e entries.

 

[glass]

Awesome. That made me happy.

And yeah, obviously folding them into the demonic race has nothing to do with "the origins of these creatures." That's a blatant misrepresentation. I don't know if Spectre666's "spoiler" is a direct quote, but if it is, it doesn't bode well if designers feel uncomfortable enough with their work that they feel the need to lie about their motivations.

It's not obvious to me.

And I really think if you are going to publicly accuse people of lying, you really should have some evidence beyond saying 'It's obvious'.


glass.

 

[The Little Raven]

It's not obvious to me.

And I really think if you are going to publicly accuse people of lying, you really should have some evidence beyond saying 'It's obvious'.

That would place the onus on the poster to actually demonstrate the logic and feasibility of their argument, rather than simply rallying people who are easily affected emotionally by changes to their favorite setting/monster/class/race/doodad so that everyone on their side agrees it's "obviously" horrible and anyone that requires an explanation obviously doesn't know what they're talking about (since if you did know what you were talking about, you'd see it as "obvious" too!).

And we wouldn't want logic to get in the way of people's emotions, now would we? We might get called insensitive or something.

 

[Plane Sailing]

let's make sure we concentrate on discussing yugloths rather than speculating on the motives of designers or posters. Thanks.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Dunamin!

I certainly hope that's not the case.

I thought the point of inevitables was to enforce a law, such as "none shall break a pact" or "none shall live forever". Having a caste of "no Far Realm being shall enter the World" inevitable seems sort of a slim concept to me. If there's going to be guardians for portals/rifts to the Far Realm it certainly makes sense for them to be lawful and disciplined, but inevitables just seems off.

Perhaps inevitables also enforce the laws of physics which the creatures from the Far Realm bend/break.

Slaadi I don't see either. They're chaotic, but they don't seem Lovecraftian at all and nothing really seems reminiscent of any aberrations I can think of.

At your leisure feel free to peruse the likes of Dagon, Tsathoggua and Deep Ones as examples of Slaad-like beings in Lovecraft.

Vice versa, look at the likes of Ssendam as being Lovecraft inspired.

 

[Dunamin]

Hey Krust!

At your leisure feel free to peruse the likes of Dagon, Tsathoggua and Deep Ones as examples of Slaad-like beings in Lovecraft.

Vice versa, look at the likes of Ssendam as being Lovecraft inspired.

Hmm, I'll give you that, I guess its just the base slaadi species I don't see Lovecraftian.

To me, slaadi seem more humanoid and "prankster"-like, while Far Realm is more about tentacled aberrations and "unknowable horror".

 

[SkidAce]

Hey Krust!


Hmm, I'll give you that, I guess its just the base slaadi species I don't see Lovecraftian.

To me, slaadi seem more humanoid and "prankster"-like, while Far Realm is more about tentacled aberrations and "unknowable horror".

Wow, first time I have see slaadi termed that way. My players would have a fit...a giant frog with sharklike teeth that almost kills you and plants alien symbiotes in your body doesn't jive as prankster with them.

Your view is just as valid of course, it just caught me off guard, and hwne I told my friend he screamed "WHAT?".

 

[Dunamin]

Wow, first time I have see slaadi termed that way. My players would have a fit...a giant frog with sharklike teeth that almost kills you and plants alien symbiotes in your body doesn't jive as prankster with them.

Your view is just as valid of course, it just caught me off guard, and hwne I told my friend he screamed "WHAT?".

Perhaps you guys haven't played much Planescape?

At least, the impression of my group and the way we usually implement slaad in the setting is as mischievous troublemakers that roam Limbo, Sigil and other parts of the planes, sometimes using violence, sometimes playing pranks on travellers, but almost always just looking to have a good time (from their perspective).

 

[Upper_Krust]

-Spoilers ahead Worlds and Monsters page 67
-Yugoloths Reconcepted by James Wyatt
[SBLOCK]-The Demons have welcomed their wayward cousins back into the fold. Once Neutral Evil Mercenaries in the endless Blood War, these Fiends are now TRUE DEMONS. They have dropped the schismatic-loth from their surnames: Mezzoloths and Nycaloths are now Mezzodemons and Nycademons.(The Mezzodemon is in the 4th Edition Monster Manual.)
-There is some speculation that these beings form a particular strain of Demonkind, servitors of a yet-to-be-named Demon Prince,and that they have more nuanced goals than most of their kin. One thing thats clear is that they're surprisingly willing to work with mortals-Mezzodemons have been sighted patrolling the streets of the great Drow metropolis Erelhei-Cinlu. they still have a mercenary streak that is uncommon among other denizens of the Abyss, who are usually content with destruction for its own sake. Perhaps as a result, they're more disciplined than most Demons, more able to coordinate their attacks, and more likely to be soldiers than brutes.
-THIS IS AN INTENTIONAL STEP BACKWARD TO THE ORIGINS OF THESE CREATURES, FIRST INTRODUCED BACK IN 1978 IN THE VAULT OF THE DROW ADVENTURE. Their names were always pronounced as if they were Demons, and they had close ties to the Drow from the first. In the absence of a NEUTRAL EVIL PLANE IN THE NEW COSMOLOGY,folding Yugoloths in with Demons or Devils seemed the LOGICAL SOLUTION. Their nature is more Demonic than Devilsh, and so they ended up in the Abyss-though they are perhaps the most Devil-like of the Demons.[/SBLOCK]

Thanks for that snippet SPECTRE666!

But it raises more questions than it answers.

- If the demons are more elemental and monstrous, while the devils are more humanoid than previously, why even retain the Ice Devil, mention it was a Daemon (though that admission could have been metagaming), rather than making it a demon.

Demons:

Balor - fire
Marilith - water?
Nalfeshnee - air
Glabrezu - earth
Hezrou - water
Vrock - air
Succubus - now a devil
Babau - ooze (para)
Dretch - minion

Devils:

Barbed - sin = wrath
Bone - sin = ?
Succubus - sin = lust
Bearded - sin = wrath
Horned - hasn't the horned/malebranche changed to a sort of medium sized soldier devil? (I seem to recall some 4E preview art of it).
Ice - elemental and monstrous, demonic.
Lemure - sin = sloth?
Pit Fiend - close to the Balor, may be removed?

Daemons:

Arcanaloth - diabolical - sin = ?
Charonoloth - diabolical - sin = avarice
Dergoloth - demonic (earth)...too close to the Glabrezu?
Hydroloth - demonic (water)...too close to the Hezrou?
Nycadaemon - demonic (?)...too close to the Balor? (Or Molydeus?)
Piscoloth - demonic (water)
Ultroloth - diabolical - sin = pride?
Yagnoloth - demonic (?)