Zad/Wizardru's Story Hour (*final update 11/12*)

Zad

First Post
Setting my writing aside, the gods have cursed us. We've had to abort a few planned sessions the last few weeks and won't have another for this game for a few more due to vacations.

Such is life sometimes. We used to lose most of August because two of our group tended to attend a certain war but that is no longer an issue.
 

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LightPhoenix

First Post
No! You are NOT allowed to have lives! Bad Meepites! ;)

Seriously, I don't think it's a big deal. I was more afraid you guys were playtesting 4E and wouldn't feel like posting was appropriate. Of course, I think you all should playtest 4E.
 

Zad

First Post
LightPhoenix said:
No! You are NOT allowed to have lives! Bad Meepites! ;)

Well a leaking hot water heater got us this week. Not sure if you'd call that a "life".

LightPhoenix said:
Seriously, I don't think it's a big deal. I was more afraid you guys were playtesting 4E and wouldn't feel like posting was appropriate. Of course, I think you all should playtest 4E.

Hey if you know somebody, we'd be more than happy to playtest it. Probably provide some decent feedback too - a decent cross section in our group.
 

LightPhoenix

First Post
Zad said:
Hey if you know somebody, we'd be more than happy to playtest it. Probably provide some decent feedback too - a decent cross section in our group.

If I knew somebody, I'd be playtesting it. I'd figure with your experiences with high-level play, you'd make good candidates. Too bad it's not something that can be applied for.
 

Aethramyr

First Post
Well, we're not dead.

We're not dead. Neither our characters, or us, luckily. We even played Shackled City this weekend. Throwing down some notes just so they're not forgotten, but don't go looking for Zad's prose here. If you want to wait for it, i'm putting it in spoiler tags.


[sblock]The group that attacked us in the bar at the end of the last episode? Called the winnowers or some-such. We were rather annoyed that they were just using astral copies of themselves, and not actually there. They were ready, we weren't. It took a bit, but we made it.

We didn't want to let them re-group, so we went looking for trouble. Couldn't find it immediatly, but then managed to spot one attacking a friend of the groups. Bellsin saw him, then saw the Diamond shart who was SUPPOSED to be helping glyph, and sort of "overheard" him talking about how he was fooling glyph, and he hired the winnowers. Followed him to the temple of We Jas, and we gathered ourselves and set out to find trouble in the Temple. [/sblock]
 

Zad

First Post
"So, this is how it ends?"

We were scheduled to play over the weekend. And we kind of tried to.

The summary of circumstances goes like this:

Me: "We need to work out the details on Alakast."

Wizardru: "Yeah, true. I'll work something up and send it to you"

Dravot: "I got an idea: We forget Alakast and go do Pathfinder!"

And it was only a half-joking suggestion.

I'm not sure if we mentioned it here but we've done a little experimentation with the Pathfinder adventure series. Wizardru likes it a lot and after having run a few adventures with semi-throw-away characters, we're all liking it too. Maybe it's just the new-adventure smell that will wear off eventually but we like it a lot.

Contrast that with Shackled City. While it started strong, the blemishes are starting to show themselves in a big way. Everyone likes their characters, but nobody is overly invested in the adventure path itself. The story has a lot of holes, and everyone seems to care less and less. The meta plots, which are laid out for the DM, are poorly and haphazardly revealed to the players, which results in a general lack of caring about the overall thing.

So we finally just put it out there and talked about it. Unsurprisingly, everyone was feeling the same way. And so rather than go through the motions, we decided to just stop with this one. We will probably use the characters in some other material, but Shackled City has failed to deliver on its promise and we're just going to let it drop and pursue Pathfinder. When 4e comes out we'll probably pick that up too.
 

WizarDru

Adventurer
So.....Shackled City.

....


See, here's the thing. We need to talk, you and I. You should sit down. You've been with us for what, 9 months? A year? Hmmm. Let me look at your file, here.

I see.

When we first hired you for the 'Adventure Path' position, we had high hopes. We'd contracted with you before through the Dungeon organization, as you'll recall. Based on your performance there, we'd offered you a full-time position. We put your map on the wall and put together a project team. Things were going well. But then...well, let's review.

First off, let me say that I feel you excelled in some areas. Your graphics were good, if not always accurate. Your maps were attractive...again, if sometimes incorrect. Your voluminous if sometimes poorly organized stat-blocks met our needs. Your dungeons...well, here's where we noted our first problems, Shackled City.

Your first assignment, "Life's Bazaar", was a solid effort, extremely irritating pun notwithstanding. A creative and interesting dungeon using something other than the standard goblins and kobolds, with some fun (although sometimes very dangerous) challenges. A good ending and some fun twists, with plenty of room for growth. A fine sign of the work we expected from you. The beholder at the end was a nice touch, if a tad deus ex machina.

Now, at this point we weren't expecting much in the way of a grand story-arc, but some underpinnings...which we saw. The real problems started with your sophmore effort, really. You remember it, I'm sure..."Drakthar's Way"? This was an all-new work and we had high hopes for it. Hopes that were quickly dashed, I'm afraid. In many ways, it felt like a quick re-hash of the previous module. Oh, there was a vampire Bugbear in it, which was interesting....but it came down to another exploration of an abandoned dungeon under the city, with more clues that would prove meaningless to the heroes. We made some alterations to accomadate upcoming events and hoped that this would be a slight case. After all, there were some interesting encounters and some potentially interesting developments here. There were developments related to future modules, even if they seems a little ham-fisted. We continued to hope.

The third module introduced the first of many problems that would occur. "Flood Season" did some things so well and others so poorly that it was surprising they were in the same module. You provided a very solid motivation to get the players involved in the story...we liked that. You built on existing story elements and introduced a set of NPC rivals for the party. That was good work, there. Forgetting some timing issues for a minute, we were pretty happy with this module. Things that didn't work very well, of course, were the 'tough' encounters and the fact that, once again, the players didn't get a lot of the story, except through NPC exposition.

But in the sense of a missed opportunity, we found the best remembered moments of the module came from a supplement someone else wrote for the module...not in your work. The whole Flood Festival was underused, frankly, and looking back, we realize a LOT of the personality of the city came from the DM's innovation, not your foundations. We forgave this since, as we mentioned, the module was overall quite good. We assumed the adventure path was on the right track and moved forward.

Our first clue that you weren't checking your own work was your next effort: "Zenith Trajectory". Again, we had a good motivation for the heroes. But now we had some problems. Getting the heroes out of the city to rescue someone immediately following "Flood Season" felt like you were repeating yourself. The party noticed, even though we jazzed it up some. Then we had the problem of Crazy Jared. Your module hinged on a couple of points: you included an encounter with a dragon that felt somewhat hollow, to rescue an insane character who was needed for information...without actually establishing that the party really needed him. Never mind that he wasn't really all that amusing, but just sort of annoying.

Oh, and let me sidetrack for a moment. We wanted to make note of the whole 'crazy prophet' notions. You were extremely inconsistent with this concept throughout the path. Why isn't Crazy Jared spouting about your BBEG back in the beginning? Why do all the crazy characters spout incomprehensible nonsense? Why bother giving the players a prophecy at all if it's nonsensical and of no use to them? You did this with the Star of Justice so often, it became a source of player mockery. Worse, it meant that when you did give clear information later, it was ignored as assumed gibberish and not given any critical thought.

Now we come to our first real problems...one that would occur with more and more frequency. The 'Challenging' encounter. Not every group looks forward to a near-TPK several times a module, Shackled City. The cryo-hydra encounter was somewhere near player-assassination in some aspects. There was little to no way for the players to anticipate the full force they were to be hit with. It was not the first such encounter in this dungeon. It was a dangerous but survivable encounter, so we went with it. But that doesn't excuse what came next: the erinyes, sir. This created an untenable situation; a killer monster with high mobility, tons of powers and an environment that made her even more lethal than normal. Teleport at Will battles do not become us, sir. I won't bother discussing the mummy. The Control Water encounter was acceptable.

Never mind that we again had a littany of 'the players will never really understand the significance' events scattered throughout the module. Finding out about Zenith Splintershield might have happened in module TEN. Maybe. Do you really think that's suitable? We did like the side touches with the black dragon, mind you. That was fun, if underplayed...but the maps were a NIGHTMARE. I saw what you were trying to do, but it was too confusing for everyone involved.

So then we came to what we had hoped would be the feather in our crown, "The Demonskar Legacy". Here, at last, was the core story...at least in parts. We'd laid down the foundation for this at length, previously....but using our own content, not yours. Core NPCs would have been just names, if we hadn't made them significant earlier on. Again, motivation for the PCs was....well, let's be honest, now. How many times can you have the same NPC beg for the heroes help, just on happenstance? You were repeating yourself again, here.

This time we had some problems from the module that weren't your doing, but ours. We had campaign specifc rules that made things complicated, but we found some outs. But your basic plot structure was abominable. The players were rapidly reaching a 'why would we do that?' phase. The maps were truly messed up this time, and there were whole sequences that just didn't make sense. We spent, on your advice Shackled City, several modules building up the demon-general and the Demon Skar in general. Then we pissed away the whole narrative as a series of caves and some stupid wind-pipes? That's it? And you even wasted two ideas at once, wasting the spell-weaver city AND the demon-enclave. WEAK. By now covering your short-comings was becoming something akin to actual work...which was why we HIRED you, Shackled City. You were supposed to be saving us time and effort, not shifting what we were working on. We were, to say the least, disappointed.

Once again, the most memorable and enjoyable parts of the module were our own work. Here, we began to suspect you were staying out late and drinking. How could you write a module featuring an invasion and then have it resolve OFF-CAMERA WITHOUT THE PLAYERS? What were you thinking, man? Never mind that you also began dropping major NPCs from the arc without any real explanation of where they went. For shame, Shackled City, for shame. Of course, the hideously lopsided final battle of the module was another situation like the Erinyes from "Zenith Trajectory". No one likes being obviously soft-balled, Shackled City...and here you were at your most patronizing. With a no-win/no-win scenario, no less.

But now we come the worst offender, Shackled City. The game-breaker, in fact. Not the last module we used, you understand...but this is the one that cracked the sky first. This is the work where we began thinking about terminating your employment. Remember how we talked about player motivation? This time you provided us with the worst, most pathetic and flimsy motivation we'd seen. If we had been wise, we would have avoided the whole idea...but we liked the IDEA of the plane of Occipitus, and the players shrugged and played along for our sake. But we all knew it was a ruse. We'd been thrown out of the story in an obvious way...and for little actual reward, as it worked out.

Did you just throw darts at a board for the monsters for this one? And....A MAZE puzzle? Really? Were you just throwing whatever you could think of on the page? Some of these encounters felt tacked on...like you were just filling an XP requirement quota. (Seriously, the lich and the dragon encounters...what were you thinking, there?) It was obvious to us and to the players. And the worst part was that at the end of the module, it felt like a totally pointless side-track. And a predictable one, at that.

You see, Shackled City, we felt you were 'phoning it in' by this point. We know that higher level modules are tougher...in fact, we believe we know it BETTER THAN YOU. Your work was getting sloppy, now. Mismatched artwork and maps became more common, and statblock mistakes started appearing. It was becoming more work to cover for your mistakes than we wanted, and you were delivering over-glorified dungeon crawls.

We skipped "Secret of the Soul Pillars" when it became obvious that it was just a rehash of the same non-adventure we'd already seen THREE TIMES by this point. The players weren't going to just go march off to ANOTHER dungeon to find another item that would again provide them NO REAL ANSWERS. And by this point, the non-presence of the Cagewrights, the proposed evil organization who motivates most of the adventure path, was beginning to rankle. The actions of the beholder, Orbius, were completely unknown to the party, making them effectively meaningless.

So we advanced to "Lords of Oblivion"....and it killed the game. Because we were following the EXACT same plot as "Secret of the Soul Pillars" and "Flood Season", and it was wearing thin. Did you think we didn't notice the meta-structure you kept overusing? Because we did, Shackled City, we did. Event happens and players stop it, but then discover that wizard Foozle did it, and they chase him to location A and fight him. That leads them to location B, where they fight Foozle's pal and then location C to fight Foozle and get Item/Installation X, that gives them a teensy clue about the metaplot.

For that matter, you have an NPC spouting exposition about the meta-plot...and if the PCs put their boot to the door or can't sneak in to hear it, they may never really know what's going on. EVER.

Now, we didn't even bother with the rest of the campaign. It was simply too much. Let's summarize your grand plan: the beholder becomes a Tarterian Beholder in his dungeon. The players are exepcted to hunt him down. Then the cagewrights trigger the volcano and earthquakes to activate their artifact and the red dragon Hookface attacks. Oh, and some demodands attack. So the players find the Cagewrights lair and kill most of them, then hunt the others to ANOTHER dungeon and kill them there. Then the BBEG suddenly appears and the players just rush off to fight him.....and then, ROLL CREDITS?

You do realize that, with what you gave us, half the most important NPCs and villains only show up about five minutes before they become important or in the case of the villains, DEAD? You spend eight modules building up the cagewrights and then kill them off in a matter of minutes after meeting them.

Really, Shackled City...I think you knew you weren't really trying. Especially as you were so inconsistent with some elements. NPCs appear and disappear without much explanation. Story arcs are inconsistently applied. Whole chunks of story are inaccessible to the players without major intervention from the DM. And worst of all, Shackled City...you became DULL. Pedestrian. Predictable.

I think we all agree this just isn't working out of any of us, Shackled City. I've informed the heroes that Vhalantru is defeated, the Cagewrights thwarted and that life goes on. Cauldron will live to be used another day...but please pick up your severance check and clear out your desk. We appreciate some of the work you did, but you just weren't a good fit for us.

Good Day, Sir.
 

LordVyreth

First Post
Aww, I'm sorry to see this thing go, but I certainly understand why it is. Yeah, you covered most of my issues with this thing, and why I prefer making up my own adventures in the first place. So did you let the PCs see the last modules, or are you saving them for borrowing purposes. I'd like to discuss/rip on some of the details that got to me personally after reading the original Dungeon versions. Oh, here's another question for you, Dru: how would you have concluded things, assuming you used everything up to, say, Flood Season as is?

The one thing I definately can agree on without spoiling things is the Occipitus. At least it avoided "go into another dungeon under the city" syndrome, but it should have been near or at the end of the path, maybe even the penultimate dungeon. At that point, I'd say, the party learns about the BBEG and the only way to defeat him is via the plane's power. You go there, the party's high enough to make the Abyss abyssal and still be fair, and now you have a reason for the party to go there, instead of abruptly abandoning it mid-invasion. Given that, as Dru mentioned, the second and third to last adventures are both "go kill a whole bunch of high level NPCs," it's not like they didn't have the room.
 

WizarDru

Adventurer
LordVyreth said:
Oh, here's another question for you, Dru: how would you have concluded things, assuming you used everything up to, say, Flood Season as is?

If I cherry pick anything from the Shackled City AP, it won't be anything that the PCs would specifically identify. Stat-blocks, mostly.

Occipitus in and of itself wasn't a problem. Having an evil NPC the PCs have never met before show up out of thin air and say "Hey, who wants to go the THE ABYSS!?!?" was weak. It was made even weaker by the fact the PCs could survive indefinitely in the abandoned temple in the desert until they could cobble together a solution to get out. Once they were at Occipitus, it seemed ridiculous: the module wants to create a sense of urgency...but then it requires the PCs to travel HUNDREDS OF MILES. Those are two self-conflicting goals.

The story hour here doesn't really reflect the last few sessions, in which the heroes fought some custom NPCs I used to replace the weak-sauce assassins of Lord of Oblivion. I tried integrating one of the Cagewrights into the fight, namely 'Fish' Wierjon. It proved frustrating, but got the plot moving, at least. The players did attack the Temple of Wee Jas, but as much because they found out that the Diamonshard Cabal had been wiped out by Orbius and Rhiavadi, with the exception of the newly christened Blackshard Di'Lao and his henchmen. Hilarity ensued, but heroes were driven from the temple by Ike Iverson's forces (though they came VERY close to stopping him).

A LOT of stuff happened in the last few sessions that hasn't been reported here, and the campaign finished right after they found out about Vhalantru's true identity by using a Speak with Dead on Jil's corpse.

My goal had been to make the cagewrights much more tangible foes who would appear and be dealt with in some force before the heroes tracked them to the lair. Hookface might have shown up when I deemed it approriate, but he'd have to contend with the local Scaled Council representative before doing anything (who had also shown up). Eventually the cagewrights would accidentally release adimarchus...or something. I hadn't quite figured out how to make Adimarchus a credible threat in the scheme of the campaign, per se.

The problem with the later modules is they offer up a threat about 10 minutes before the players have to STOP the threat. This becomes a real problem...and part of the root of it is that the campaign is so heavily tied to Cauldron, geographically. High level PCs live on a wider stage than that, and the campaign arc doesn't really handle that. Hell, pathfinder moves on to the big city by the second module (though they go back and forth a lot).

When I have some more time, I'll discuss what worked and didn't. But it's worth noting that the best moments of the game all came from stuff NOT in the book. And that's a bit of a problem, for me. (see The Demonskar Ball, Ghost Town, Siege of Redgorge, Bellsin discoving his parentage, etc.)
 


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