Zen Melee
- Thread starter Eltern
- Start date
Xarls Taunzund
First Post
Eltern said:
Using to add to your melee attack rolls instead of strenth isn't too bad, there is Zen Archery from Sword & Fist that does the same for ranged. However IMO replacing str with wis for damage seems a bit much.
No, he is making a new feat.
IMO the feat seems a little too strong.
One of the monk's big disadvantages is that so many of his powers depend on different ability scores. He needs Wisdom and Dexterity to keep his AC up without armor, Constitution to avoid dying, and Strength to deal damage.
The proposed feat would make Strength far less important, allowing the monk to get double benefit for a high Wisdom score. It would be almost a no-brainer for monks to pump their Wis at the expense of Str, and then cover the downside by taking the feat.
Zen Archery is more balanced because it requires a bow, with which the monk is not automatically proficient. To get full benefit he either needs to spend a feat on MWP, or spend a level on another fighting class.
One of the monk's big disadvantages is that so many of his powers depend on different ability scores. He needs Wisdom and Dexterity to keep his AC up without armor, Constitution to avoid dying, and Strength to deal damage.
The proposed feat would make Strength far less important, allowing the monk to get double benefit for a high Wisdom score. It would be almost a no-brainer for monks to pump their Wis at the expense of Str, and then cover the downside by taking the feat.
Zen Archery is more balanced because it requires a bow, with which the monk is not automatically proficient. To get full benefit he either needs to spend a feat on MWP, or spend a level on another fighting class.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
They're probably ill-advised as they stand.
They obviously use Zen Archery as a precedent and zen archery (despite the misgivings I would probably have if it were proposed in an online forum rather than being printed in a book) hasn't caused any balance problems that I've observed yet. However, this is significantly different from zen archery for several reasons.
1. In order to be an effective archer, you need to have point blank, precise, and rapid shot. Consequently, any cleric constructed to take advantage of zen archery needed to be committed to archery from (basically) level 1. Since the cleric had to get to level 6 before he could get have all those feats and zen archery, he needed a decent stat in dexterity if he was to be effective in his chosen role during those levels.
Being effective in melee doesn't really require any feats--you can even get by wielding a morning star without power attack and cleave. So, there's no disadvantages built in to the construction of a character who ignores strength and then uses Zen melee to make up for the lack of strength in melee. Zen archery (as discussed before) has a built-in construction disadvantage since it's necessary to focus the character's early feats on archery.
2. Clerics are automatically proficient in good melee weapons but either need a war domain, favored weapon: bow god (Phaulkon is the only Greyhawk god like that) or to be elves (which means that they have to either have the (non-core) elf domain or wait until 9th level to have point blank shot, rapid shot, and zen archery--and that their dex bonus makes zen archery less attractive) in order to be proficient. This places further constraints upon the construction of the cleric-uber archer. (And you'll notice that most of the cleric archer builds on the boards don't feature zen archery--mostly for these reasons).
3. Monks aren't proficient with bows and rarely focus on ranged feats. Thus zen archery didn't really do much for monks. Zen Melee, OTOH, would be a must-have feat for monks.
However, that doesn't mean that such a feat would be wholly out of place.
The feat could probably be balanced by prerequisites. I'd suggest:
BAB +6, 5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (Arcana), Blindfight, Power attack.
Adding feats as prerequisites means that clerics need to make a significant feat commitment to melee before the level they take zen melee in order to be effective. Thus they face the same kind of constraints (although fewer) as the archer cleric.
Having Power attack as a feat prereq also smuggles in a 13+ strength requirement. (Combat Expertise would also be good and might perhaps make more sense in terms of flavor but expecting monks or clerics to have a 13+ int would make the feat less than useful in most 32 point buy or lower games). This immediately restricts the benefit from the feat (since the character will have a str bonus) and makes it less attractive to monks (who can't actually use power attack very well in 3.5 since their unarmed strikes are light weapons).
Blindfight was added to have a second feat and because the classic way to learn zen swordsmanship in movies seems to be training while blindfolded.
BAB +6 was added to further restrict the use of the feat. It's readily available to 9th level clerics and monks who have trained for it but extremely maximized builds will be rare since the character has to spend nearly half of their career without access to it (and needs to be effective enough to be fun playing until that point).
They obviously use Zen Archery as a precedent and zen archery (despite the misgivings I would probably have if it were proposed in an online forum rather than being printed in a book) hasn't caused any balance problems that I've observed yet. However, this is significantly different from zen archery for several reasons.
1. In order to be an effective archer, you need to have point blank, precise, and rapid shot. Consequently, any cleric constructed to take advantage of zen archery needed to be committed to archery from (basically) level 1. Since the cleric had to get to level 6 before he could get have all those feats and zen archery, he needed a decent stat in dexterity if he was to be effective in his chosen role during those levels.
Being effective in melee doesn't really require any feats--you can even get by wielding a morning star without power attack and cleave. So, there's no disadvantages built in to the construction of a character who ignores strength and then uses Zen melee to make up for the lack of strength in melee. Zen archery (as discussed before) has a built-in construction disadvantage since it's necessary to focus the character's early feats on archery.
2. Clerics are automatically proficient in good melee weapons but either need a war domain, favored weapon: bow god (Phaulkon is the only Greyhawk god like that) or to be elves (which means that they have to either have the (non-core) elf domain or wait until 9th level to have point blank shot, rapid shot, and zen archery--and that their dex bonus makes zen archery less attractive) in order to be proficient. This places further constraints upon the construction of the cleric-uber archer. (And you'll notice that most of the cleric archer builds on the boards don't feature zen archery--mostly for these reasons).
3. Monks aren't proficient with bows and rarely focus on ranged feats. Thus zen archery didn't really do much for monks. Zen Melee, OTOH, would be a must-have feat for monks.
However, that doesn't mean that such a feat would be wholly out of place.
The feat could probably be balanced by prerequisites. I'd suggest:
BAB +6, 5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (Arcana), Blindfight, Power attack.
Adding feats as prerequisites means that clerics need to make a significant feat commitment to melee before the level they take zen melee in order to be effective. Thus they face the same kind of constraints (although fewer) as the archer cleric.
Having Power attack as a feat prereq also smuggles in a 13+ strength requirement. (Combat Expertise would also be good and might perhaps make more sense in terms of flavor but expecting monks or clerics to have a 13+ int would make the feat less than useful in most 32 point buy or lower games). This immediately restricts the benefit from the feat (since the character will have a str bonus) and makes it less attractive to monks (who can't actually use power attack very well in 3.5 since their unarmed strikes are light weapons).
Blindfight was added to have a second feat and because the classic way to learn zen swordsmanship in movies seems to be training while blindfolded.
BAB +6 was added to further restrict the use of the feat. It's readily available to 9th level clerics and monks who have trained for it but extremely maximized builds will be rare since the character has to spend nearly half of their career without access to it (and needs to be effective enough to be fun playing until that point).
FluidDragon
First Post
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59860
I suggested a similar feat in the above thread. (Which is a good read).
I would make the feat like this:
Harness Chi: (As your Chi/Ki is doing the damage, zen would be more appropriate to the attack roll not damage)
Pre-Req: Wis 15+, Still Mind Class ability
Benifit: Through meditation and clamness you have learned to harness your Chi and can enhance your UNARMED damage. You no longer use STR to modify your unarmed damage rolls but use your wisdom modifier instead.
I added the Still mind class ability and the qualifier of UNARMED damage. This limits Clerics from abusing the feat as it is meant to represent the Internal martial arts: Akido, Tai Chi, Ba Qua, Hi Sing, etc. The qualifier of unarmed damge also balances this and makes sense as you don't really project your chi through your weapons.
This feat I feel is badly needed for monks. 1. There is not really a good way to simulate in existing rules the damage that Internal Style martial arts are capable of dealing. To make a good combat monk now you really need to have a high STR and this doesn't fit all monk concepts. A high DEX / WIS monk still needs to burn 2 feats to get a good attack and damage bonus compared to a high STR monk but IRL it IS a more dificult path and takes longer to attain. This feat would also ease the stat dependance that the monk has and would not be subject to abuse by Clerics, Druids, Paladins and to a lesser extend Rangers.
-FD
I suggested a similar feat in the above thread. (Which is a good read).
I would make the feat like this:
Harness Chi: (As your Chi/Ki is doing the damage, zen would be more appropriate to the attack roll not damage)
Pre-Req: Wis 15+, Still Mind Class ability
Benifit: Through meditation and clamness you have learned to harness your Chi and can enhance your UNARMED damage. You no longer use STR to modify your unarmed damage rolls but use your wisdom modifier instead.
I added the Still mind class ability and the qualifier of UNARMED damage. This limits Clerics from abusing the feat as it is meant to represent the Internal martial arts: Akido, Tai Chi, Ba Qua, Hi Sing, etc. The qualifier of unarmed damge also balances this and makes sense as you don't really project your chi through your weapons.
This feat I feel is badly needed for monks. 1. There is not really a good way to simulate in existing rules the damage that Internal Style martial arts are capable of dealing. To make a good combat monk now you really need to have a high STR and this doesn't fit all monk concepts. A high DEX / WIS monk still needs to burn 2 feats to get a good attack and damage bonus compared to a high STR monk but IRL it IS a more dificult path and takes longer to attain. This feat would also ease the stat dependance that the monk has and would not be subject to abuse by Clerics, Druids, Paladins and to a lesser extend Rangers.
-FD
FluidDragon
First Post
AuraSeer said:
If I am correct (going by memory) Zen Archery only affects attack rolls not damage right?
Xarls Taunzund
First Post
Quite so.
Personally
Personally, I'm much more inclined to make this read ONLY unarmed -damage-, for the dex/wis monk concept. This is precisely what I had in mind. However, I was worried about the balance, as when I posted ideas about an improved wep. finesse feat that gave the attacker dex mod to damage (instead of strength) -only- when under the same circumstances as a sneak attack, it was met with widespread dissaproval. Obviously, a feat like this really only applies to clerics and monks, however, so this may make balancing work out different.
Of course, it could be two feats, one for to hit, the other for damage.
Eltern
Personally, I'm much more inclined to make this read ONLY unarmed -damage-, for the dex/wis monk concept. This is precisely what I had in mind. However, I was worried about the balance, as when I posted ideas about an improved wep. finesse feat that gave the attacker dex mod to damage (instead of strength) -only- when under the same circumstances as a sneak attack, it was met with widespread dissaproval. Obviously, a feat like this really only applies to clerics and monks, however, so this may make balancing work out different.
Of course, it could be two feats, one for to hit, the other for damage.
Eltern
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