Zombies! New Dungeoncraft article up

[Shroomy]

Idle curiosity.

If zombies are the shambling, flesh-hungry horde, then what becomes of ghouls?

Zombies in 3e were just 'Ho hum, oh look, something I am ordered to kill..." while Ghouls were the undead driven by hunger.

So, is the ghoul just a faster, smarter zombie that can play freeze tag? I hope not.

Isn't that pretty much what the ghoul is today, except with different flavor elements?

 

[Khuxan]

Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I hope there is no such thing as, say, a Feywild-native wolf or a Shadowfell-native tiger.

I would much rather see a situation where there are similar creatures but not virtually-identical creatures. So, say you have a Wild Hunt that runs around the Feywild in the dark of night; I hope that the Huntsman's dogs aren't "Feywild dogs" but death dogs (Fiend Folio) or something similar.

I was never really satisfied with the implication that, thanks to the fiendish and celestial templates, there were all sorts of "normal" animals running around the Upper and Lower Planes.

I think that's a fantastic idea. Generic templates are boring and won't fill monster manuals, but unique creatures would make the Feywild/Shadowfell exciting instead of repetitive.

 

[Stone Dog]

Isn't that pretty much what the ghoul is today, except with different flavor elements?

For preference I'd really like ghouls to be alive. They would be unholy creatures that feed off death, but they eat to stay alive while zombies eat because that is what zombies do. A ghoul might starve while a zombie will just wander around till it finds something to eat. A ghoul will get full, but a zombie will keep eating till food pours out of its mouth because there is no more room in its gullet. Also, ghouls feed off the dead, zombies will feed off the living.

 

[JVisgaitis]

So, is the ghoul just a faster, smarter zombie that can play freeze tag? I hope not.

Probably not and there isn't a place for them in 4e unless they change them up and make them different. With all of the blogspeak on making monsters unique, I would expect them to be somehow different. In Warhammer, ghouls are normal people who crave flesh. Now that you can do with a template and give them weird powers and the ability to use weapons. That may not be to everyone's tastes, but I always liked Warhammer ghouls.

 

[gothmaugCC]

I'm glad the zombie/skeleton templates are going the way of the dodo. I mean in all honesty, how often did you actually USE a specialized zombie? ZOmbies are classic low level fodder with the occasional high level "zombie dragon" or some such nonsense. Looking at the creativity levels across this board, i'm sure any of us could make a reasonably functional "zombie dragon" or other specialized zombie in a few minutes of work.

What this change does do is makes it darn easy for new players to the game to go "Oh hey lets fight a bunch of zombies" without haveinbg to worry about annoying details like "well we have 3 elf zombies, 2 dwarf zombies, an orc and a troglodyte, ok...um which one looks tougher, umm should i burn the orc before the elf?..: etc etc etc.

A zombie is a zombie is a zombie. I like it. Same with skeletons. Nice simple undead for low level players. We have zillions of other undead in the game for more complex interactions at higher levels, so im not going to shed a tear if i no longer have a template to make my "half black dragon, half ettin zombie" or whatever.


P.S. Templates DO make sense for some creatures (including zombies), but they add a level of complexity to the game that I dont think needs to be there for zombies and skeletons.

P.P.S. What I hate about templates is template stacking. By the Time Monster manual 5 rolled around, I basically got sick and tired of seeing monsters with 2 or 3 templates stacked on. Great..I mean how often DOES a dragon breed with an ettin who happened to be infernal, and then die and get raised as a zombie? Waaay to may templates for a mindless monster who shambles along looking for brains.

 

[Rechan]

Isn't that pretty much what the ghoul is today, except with different flavor elements?

I've always basically seen the ghoul as more a cursed individual. Think of ye olde Nosforatu; he doesn't even get to look sexy. But then, I've had ghouls who are intentional plaguebarers, guys who will dispose of a body, eaters of the poor and degenerate in cities, etc. Ghouls make great urban undead.

The problem though with ghouls is that they're just buggered when it comes to where they fit in the game. They don't have the HP and to-hit to be toe-to-toe guys, the dex or AC to be skirmishers, etc etc. All they can do is get a whole bunch of their friends together and pray that you fail your fort save.

 

[Rechan]

For preference I'd really like ghouls to be alive.

More appropriately, I think a ghoul that is alive becomes a Wendigo.

 

[gothmaugCC]

The problem though with ghouls is that they're just buggered when it comes to where they fit in the game. They don't have the HP and to-hit to be toe-to-toe guys, the dex or AC to be skirmishers, etc etc. All they can do is get a whole bunch of their friends together and pray that you fail your fort save.

I don't know about that. Its pretty evil to have ghouls lurking in a secret passage, then reach out from thier hidey hole and drag a (probably paralyzed) PC inside.

Oh and then they close the door......
.......I've never seen characters try sooo hard to find the trick to opening a door

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Ghouls are like zombies, only with brains and feral, animal cunning. You can have a conversation with a ghouil, before he pounces and eats your heart. Zombies just shamble after brains.

Mechanically I'd make ghouls speedier and more dextrous, plus brainier. Perhaps give them a sneak attack and excellent stealth abilities ... while zombies are brainless, brain-eating bags o' hit points.

Edit: Strong, nigh-unstoppable bags o' hit points, but bags o' hit points nonetheless.

 

[Rechan]

while zombies are brainless, brain-eating bags o' hit points.

Well according to the article, zombies won't be "bags of hit points". They'll actually be, well, dangerous. Because they can take a beating and hit back, really really hard. And usually come with about twenty friends.

Though this makes me wonder:

Why don't zombies eat each other? And, if a ghoul finds zombies, will he try to eat them? Will they fight back?