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D&D 5E CR 13 dragon beaten by level 7 party observations

I think that encounter went about right, and sounded really fun. I might have given the dragon a ledge or two it could have flown up to (I think the MM might have even recommended that).

As far as it being boring for dragons to just fly past a party in the open using their breathe weapon until the party is dead...I just can't agree with that.

It is boring if the party is unwise enough to just stand there and let the dragon do that. It should also be fatal. If a dragon can defeat a party like that, with minimal risk to itself, it should (in my play-style). I always treat dragons as powerful and interesting NPCs--even if they just use the vanilla stat block.

Here is what I would do, as a dragon, if I found a party traveling out in the open and wanted to eat them. I would swoop by and hit them with my breathe to test them out. If they look like they are about dead, I'd probably land and finish them and enjoy my meal. If it looked like it damaged them but they were staying in a group and weren't doing too much damage to me with ranged attacks, I'd keep doing the same thing until they were dinner. If they were smart enough to split up, then is when it would get much more fun for everyone involved.

I'd target someone who looked rather weak or squishy. I'd swoop down, grab them, fly up into the air and drop them--preferably over a cliff or onto another party member. Maybe do it again to someone else, but as a dragon with style I'd probably shake it up and do something different. I'd probably find the next opponent who doesn't look like they have strong melee capabilities and is far enough away that those party members who do won't be able to charge me immediately. I'd land and go to town on them with all of my attacks, and probably a tail attack as a legendary action. For my next legendary action, I'd use my wing buffet and fly up and away so I'm still not in range of those pesky action surging whirling blades of death.

By now I likely have a breathe attack recharged and the party is more scared of being isolated than being together, so I go find another 2 or 3 of them bunched together and breathe on them.

Now that there is only one tough melee opponent left in the battle, and he is down to half hit points or so, I land in front of him and then let him do his worst so he can feel good about himself while I shred him to bits, eat him, and claim his treasure as my own.

At any point, if the party seems to be making a real comeback or pulling out spells that seem like they might negate my advantage (something that can knock me out of the sky, for instance) I directly address that, or fly away and plot how to ambush them under more favorable conditions later. I also use my spells as needed (and the spellcasting dragon variant is always used in my world).

Adventurers are dinner. That is why we are hundreds of years old and have hoards full of the treasure they have delivered to us with their corpses.

That sounds pretty scary exciting to me as a player too. Dragons should be feared. Standing out in an open field while one of them comes at you ought to send you running for cover. That's why adventurers track them into their lair in the first place. Of course, they not only have lair actions, they have traps and minions and advantageously positioned terrain, etc.

And now some of you are thinking of how you would attempt to counter those tactics and defeat the dragon. Good! As DM, when playing a legendary creature I really am out to defeat the party, and they should earn their victory, or die. Of course, they ought to have a good reason to expect they are up for a challenge, because random TPKs are no fun for anyone. And as the DM I want the players to win so they can keep on adventuring in my campaign that we are all enjoying. But I wear many hats and that dragon intends to eat them. Fear the dragon.
 

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Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I've ran heaps of lair fights against Dragons using Level 17 and Level 20 parties.
If you have action surging Fighters in your group they just rip Dragons to shreds.
Never let them get into melee. Not exactly what you'd picture as a heroic Dragon fight but there you go.
Otherwise if youre after a heroic Dragon fight, they should always be the spell caster variant and have defensive buffs running.

Action Surge every short rest for fighters does seem a bit much. Every time I've seen it used, it does immense damage. Few creatures can stand up to it.
 

DaveDash

Explorer
I think that encounter went about right, and sounded really fun. I might have given the dragon a ledge or two it could have flown up to (I think the MM might have even recommended that).

As far as it being boring for dragons to just fly past a party in the open using their breathe weapon until the party is dead...I just can't agree with that.

It is boring if the party is unwise enough to just stand there and let the dragon do that. It should also be fatal. If a dragon can defeat a party like that, with minimal risk to itself, it should (in my play-style). I always treat dragons as powerful and interesting NPCs--even if they just use the vanilla stat block.

Here is what I would do, as a dragon, if I found a party traveling out in the open and wanted to eat them. I would swoop by and hit them with my breathe to test them out. If they look like they are about dead, I'd probably land and finish them and enjoy my meal. If it looked like it damaged them but they were staying in a group and weren't doing too much damage to me with ranged attacks, I'd keep doing the same thing until they were dinner. If they were smart enough to split up, then is when it would get much more fun for everyone involved.

I'd target someone who looked rather weak or squishy. I'd swoop down, grab them, fly up into the air and drop them--preferably over a cliff or onto another party member. Maybe do it again to someone else, but as a dragon with style I'd probably shake it up and do something different. I'd probably find the next opponent who doesn't look like they have strong melee capabilities and is far enough away that those party members who do won't be able to charge me immediately. I'd land and go to town on them with all of my attacks, and probably a tail attack as a legendary action. For my next legendary action, I'd use my wing buffet and fly up and away so I'm still not in range of those pesky action surging whirling blades of death.

By now I likely have a breathe attack recharged and the party is more scared of being isolated than being together, so I go find another 2 or 3 of them bunched together and breathe on them.

Now that there is only one tough melee opponent left in the battle, and he is down to half hit points or so, I land in front of him and then let him do his worst so he can feel good about himself while I shred him to bits, eat him, and claim his treasure as my own.

At any point, if the party seems to be making a real comeback or pulling out spells that seem like they might negate my advantage (something that can knock me out of the sky, for instance) I directly address that, or fly away and plot how to ambush them under more favorable conditions later. I also use my spells as needed (and the spellcasting dragon variant is always used in my world).

Adventurers are dinner. That is why we are hundreds of years old and have hoards full of the treasure they have delivered to us with their corpses.

That sounds pretty scary exciting to me as a player too. Dragons should be feared. Standing out in an open field while one of them comes at you ought to send you running for cover. That's why adventurers track them into their lair in the first place. Of course, they not only have lair actions, they have traps and minions and advantageously positioned terrain, etc.

And now some of you are thinking of how you would attempt to counter those tactics and defeat the dragon. Good! As DM, when playing a legendary creature I really am out to defeat the party, and they should earn their victory, or die. Of course, they ought to have a good reason to expect they are up for a challenge, because random TPKs are no fun for anyone. And as the DM I want the players to win so they can keep on adventuring in my campaign that we are all enjoying. But I wear many hats and that dragon intends to eat them. Fear the dragon.

The problem with all of this is you only get about 3 rounds to do it. If you take longer than that to do this, you're probably dead, especially if they have a dex based Fighter with a bow. You have no cover to hide behind. If they don't have a dex based Fighter with a bow, then yeah, you have somewhat of a chance, but if the players can block line of effect between your mouth and them, your breath weapon cannot hurt them. At some point to do damage, you're going to have to come in close, or circle around for ages.

There is also a great little spell that will really ruin your day. Faerie Fire. It's low level so it can be spammed, and it will really mess you up if you don't use your legendary resistances for it. Once they're gone, you're toast. Also if they have a battle master with a longbow, all he needs to do is spam menacing strike in your direction, you better use your legendary actions to pass that too, and if he hits, they could be all gone in ONE round.

And given the fact you had god awful initiative, you're probably not going first, so you're unlucky to get all the party in one hit with your breath.

I've ran numerous combats against Dragons (out of a campaign, play testing them) and the problem is, they're not really that fearsome. There's also so many reports of parties killing them from Level 2-3 parties killing the Dragon in LMoP to a Level 4 party killing the Adult Blue Dragon in HoTQD.
 

Pickles JG

First Post
The CR of Dragon's seems to be in other stuff rather than raw stats & if they cannot use the other stuff effectively they will be particularly feeble.

Things like lifting & dropping & otherwise isolating party members.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
Did the dragon have a chance to escape? My dragons typically have an escape plan since pesky adventures like to sneak into dragon lairs and attack them while they sleep.
 

Well the problem is most martial types will be better at grappling than the Dragon due to athletics. Grapples/Shove should have really been just str/dex checks. If the Dragon flies around though and stays at reach it should render the melee martial pretty ineffective, but again, then we have a boring fight on our hands (and the melee player misses out on the fun).

The dragon CAN however go after whatever player is poor at grappling and get him/her, since the party is likely separated due to breath weapon. In fact I'd highly recommend that.

As a DM I would rule that a defensive grapple check vs a Dragon would be done at least at Disadvantage due to the size difference (> 1 size larger).
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Did the dragon have a chance to escape? My dragons typically have an escape plan since pesky adventures like to sneak into dragon lairs and attack them while they sleep.

No, it didn't. This was a one-off "just for fun" type of game that was basically arena combat.

Re: the solo CR issue I mentioned, it wasn't just this one time, but in an actual campaign it came up too. I think the best solution is minions, rather than beefing up or legendary actions. LA sure helps, sure, but minions spread the save or suck spells around a bit, and draws the attention of the party away from just being able to blow their load in one or two rounds right at the big baddie.

For example, with minions, PCs would have disadvantage shooting the big baddie from range if the minions were up in their face, so just a handful of minions could have a dramatic affect.

And in my campaigns all the way from the beginning, a creature like a dragon would have lots of minions around. Not to mention several challenges the PCs would have to fact just getting there. That's one reason why I am not too worried about a 7th level party beating a CR13 solo creature. I'd be really interested to hear how a 4th level party beat an adult blue dragon (mentioned earlier), because that I can't get my head around ;) We were set up perfectly in our scenario: full resources, magic items, unescapable lair, etc.
 

Dausuul

Legend
As a DM I would rule that a defensive grapple check vs a Dragon would be done at least at Disadvantage due to the size difference (> 1 size larger).
Why? This makes no sense. You're not trying to wrestle the dragon, you're trying to evade its grasp. Being smaller should make that easier, not harder.

Which is hardest to grab when it's trying to evade you: A medium-sized dog, a cat, or a mouse?
 

Why? This makes no sense. You're not trying to wrestle the dragon, you're trying to evade its grasp. Being smaller should make that easier, not harder.

Which is hardest to grab when it's trying to evade you: A medium-sized dog, a cat, or a mouse?

Think about King Kong, do you really think a human being is going to win an opposed Grapple test with him? That's the actual act of his hand gripping the person. Evading him by hiding some place he can't reach or other tactic is not part of the grapple test. This is where you've entered close proximity to the large creature who is now grabbing you.

That's why.
 


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