D&D 5E Adjusting Wildshape

snickersnax

Explorer
I don't use ability score changes at all for wild shape except based on size. tiny: -4 str, small -2 str, large +2 str, huge +4 strength. Hit points stay the same and are the same pool regardless of form (reducing your wildshape to 0 hp causes you to revert and start making death saves). Equipment doesn't merge. The form does give movement, AC, attacks and damage.
 

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Illithidbix

Explorer
It's interesting that in the playtest, the Druid seemed to switch between the "use the actual animal stats" and "here are some abstracted stats", and I was surprised they went with "use the actual stats" for the final release.

Personally I absolutely love Wildshape, although it can be a nightmare with both balance and logistics.

I also have a very odd cognitive disjunction with abstracted forms feeling less like the transformation is *real*, which is strange given I mostly don't care about that sort of simulationism.

Perhaps. one idea is to have a set number of *prepared shapes* like the final playtest.

5E playtest October 2013 said:
Circle of the Moon Features Level Feature
2 Battle Wild Shape
6 Mauler Shapes
10 Monstrous Shapes

Battle Wild Shape You can use Wild Shape as part of any action that doesn’t involve casting a spell or activating a magic item. When you use your Wild Shape, you can choose to transform into an animal form that is dangerous in battle. The first battle forms you can assume are a dire wolf or a panther.

Mauler Shapes Starting at 6th level, you can assume two new battle forms: a brown bear or a tiger.

Monstrous Shapes At 10th level, you can assume two new battle forms: a cave bear or a triceratops.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Well, it is artificial, mostly because it gives the DM leverage to say that, say, dinosaurs don't exist in their setting, so no, you cannot turn into one. Its not really meant to ban turning into a grizzly bear when you play in the Sword Coast, though it is banned if you play in a Dark Suns setting (I would guess that bears don't exist there?).

Sure, it does give the DM leverage. But the fact that this then relies on DM fiat is poor design in my opinion. A wizard does not require DM fiat to learn new spells, because it is assumed that the wizard will be doing their own research. A wizard does not need to wait for a scroll of fireball before they can learn fireball (though if the DM uses that as a reward, that's a bonus). So why must a druid be only able to learn new forms if they encounter the animal? What if the DM doesn't use beasts very often? Also, what does it say about the design of beasts that a DM must step in to adjudicate whether a particular form is allowable? What I'm trying to do is bring the design of wildshape more into line with spells. Spells are (better) balanced against one another and it is much easier to eyeball them to be within a particular power range. It is also easier to pump up many lower level spells with higher level spell slots. The only way for a druid to do this with wildshape is to abandon one form in favor of another.

Now, I'm a fan of allowing just a single form that grows with time. Or just leaving the usual 1/8th or whatever level CR most druids can change into and adopting one "advanced" form that you can shift into with growing stats. The reason is because I like the idea of a spider-focused drow druid, or a were(-wolf, -panther, -cow, -fox) shifter, and so on. Single animal form you embrace. I really do like the idea of a single war-form.

But you are making things way over complicated here. Most of the time, a druid turning into a bird or frog or whatever don't really depend on stats. AS you mention elsewhere, its mostly as an exploratory thing. So, why not just make notes for said exploration bits and go from there?

Because even exploration bits require at least some mechanics to run effectively and be similar to what current wildshape forms are capable of achieving. For example, if you use an animal form to sneak or explore, you probably want to know how well your stealth and perception skills work and whether you have access to darkvision or blindsight, which even low level druid wildshape can have access to. In addition, if you need to get somewhere fast or are trying to escape something, you probably wanna know how fast you are or what the chances are that something might hit you. Even in exploration, as a squirrel you might encounter a hungry cat, or that hobgoblin you're trying to sneak past might spot you and may decide you make fun target practice on its long and boring watch duty. Better for the DM and player to have something in the design for consistency and fairness rather than rely on DM fiat. Not to mention, without adding in bonuses to stealth or other achievable abilities with wildshape or adjustments to stats, you are now weakening the class over all as it now has no access to things that traditional wildshape would allow.

Hmm... HP seems to be following 4e's philosophy. Most of the tankiness is supposed to come from sacrificing spell slots. You're standardizing speed and, well, almost everything. That's kind of boring. Part of the interesting things about picking your form is being the large lumbering bear versus the agile snake, versus stalking tiger. Sure, there's the abilities, but having it reflected in the stats is good too. You're better off with either giving a second standard array for the Moon druid to track, or start off with a base animal stat and letting it grow with level in some way.

I came to these stats by literally combing through a decent sample size of CR 1 beasts, finding the average of their physical stats, and using that as the base. I also built in a method for improving the forms based on a preferred play style for the player. In some way this allows more flexibility because you don't have to rely on existing beast stat blocks. But it does sacrifice the ability to adopt different battle forms with various offensive/defensive strategies. Personally, I think the advantages of streamlining the process of wildshape outweigh the potential clunkiness and time cost of pouring through various options each time you wildshape as exists with the current iteration.

As for HP, as a druid increases in level the forms they have access to increase in power, including HP. I took the average HP of a CR 1 beast and eyeballed the HP increase of higher forms. I may be off in my assumption for approximate HP of a given and appropriate CR beast option, but I think the formula (base HP + druid level * X) is solid.

As it is? You're lacking any real growth. Hells, there's not even any multiple attacks at level 5+. This means that you'll always be attackign with just 1d8+3 damage. That's not good.

I had forgotten to include Multiattack in there for combat forms (I don't think non-moon druids should gain multiattack). But otherwise you are incorrect. If you read the entry carefully, each form gains an ASI when the druid gains an ASI, and they can gain perks which include improving armor, improving the weapon damage dice, and various other attack options. I did not elaborate on those such as poison because right now this work is still being polished, and I have only really tracked the various abilities animal forms can benefit from without yet adapting them mechanically. So thank yo for pointing this out. This isn't a final product.

Plus, you're not really looking at the Moon Druid's level 6~14 subclass levels. just the apprentice levels. While level 6's primal strike really doesn't need adjustments (maybe put in Multi-Attack here), level 10 and 14 are basically completely and utterly unrealistic to leave alone.

You're right, and I appreciate you pointing this out. This is in part because I am still reviewing higher level beast form options. I have not even looked at how to incorporate things such as the elemental wildshape. But these are areas I'm looking to include and polish. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Curious minds inquiring. How much have they mattered in your games? I've never seen dice rolls really come up in my game related to animal shapes.

I mention examples above. Exploration, stealth, and speed forms all have the potential to require stats and mechanics because you never know what a player might encounter that might ask for an opposed roll or use of some additional ability. My philosophy is better to have stats so that the player has a reasonable expectation of their abilities rather than require DM fiat and risk inconsistency from session to session.
 
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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I'm of the same mind as you. I much prefer either a set form or a template. Having a few specialize but still set is fine, but not pretending monsters are balanced templates.

One purely descriptive point - at certain levels I would allow the description to be elemental or fey as well as beast.

Whenever you gain an ASI from your druid level, you can improve your Wildshape Form's abilities. You may apply a +2 to one Wildshape ability score, +1 to two Wildshape ability scores. You cannot improve your Wildshape ability score higher than 20. You can apply this improvement to each form available, and you can choose a different stat to improve for each form.

In addition, each time you improve your Wildshape ability scores, you can choose 2 abilities from the following list. Each ability can only be taken once. You must meet the minimum level listed for each ability. Each ability chosen can be used in any form you have available.

My one concern is that once you get an advantage like "Fly", you'll always use it (there is no penalty to) and it limits your form from a storytelling or terrain-appropriate perspective. I'd rather it a bit more like sorcerer metamagic where you learned options and could apply a set number of them.

An additional suggested improvement for the exploration form list: Speech (Like a parrot or raven)

Onto combat form - I don't think this keeps up with cantrip damage, and that usually done at range. I would boost it.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Maybe encourage your players to spend some time looking through the MM between game sessions to decide what forms they are interested in..?

This was my rule back in 3.5, started from when I played a druid (and that involved a lot more impact on the final than 5e does) - if you regularly switched forms, you needed to have your forms stated and printed ahead of time. I wasn't a stickler if something unusual came up, like "oh look, we need to dredge that lake", but for combat no faking it from the book.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
*Shrugs* Do what you want. I'm still saying that you're making things far too complicated. You're trying to plan for every tiny thing, when 99% of the time? Its irrelevant. Its the same argument I hear from people that hoard things, or carry around a giant purses. "Well, I might need this!" "It expired three years ago - and its still unopened." Yes, that does happen. Making up stats for something that might possibly happen is not really relevant. Now, quoting stats that you actually experience in game? That's relevant.

Cut the fat, make things simple. Keep the most relevant rolls that do come up in your game, and then check the book if something more is ever needed in that 1% niche situation. Otherwise, its just a lot of book keeping for no point. And no one likes that.


As for the stats? I don't care for it, it feels all samey with only a tiny nod towards customization, and would not recommend it.

That's my review, take it as you will. Good bye
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
I'm of the same mind as you. I much prefer either a set form or a template. Having a few specialize but still set is fine, but not pretending monsters are balanced templates.

One purely descriptive point - at certain levels I would allow the description to be elemental or fey as well as beast.

I'm a little more flexible. I don't mind the wildshape being described as monstrous, fey, even mechanical (warforged transformer!) so long as it is relatively appropriate based on the capabilities of the form. But glad we're on the same page! I really think believing monsters (even if they are beasts) are balanced PC options is not smart. Especially since any additional monsters created in upcoming books may not be balanced to use as wildshape forms. A great example would be cranium rats from Volo's Guide. They are technically perfect options for a wildshaping druid, but is it really balanced to allow a wildshaping druid to gain the ability to mask themselves from thought detection? What other monsters might come up in future expansions? It's not great. At least new spells that are created are created with the players and relative balance in mind.

My one concern is that once you get an advantage like "Fly", you'll always use it (there is no penalty to) and it limits your form from a storytelling or terrain-appropriate perspective. I'd rather it a bit more like sorcerer metamagic where you learned options and could apply a set number of them.

Personally, I'm ok with the ability to fly for player characters. I allow the Aarakroca in my games, so I have no qualms about fly. I know others have a different stance, which is ok. But that fly potential is also one of the advantages of being a druid that other classes really don't gain (with the exception of dragon sorcerers at higher level).

An additional suggested improvement for the exploration form list: Speech (Like a parrot or raven)

I've considered this, as well as maybe being able to have human hands for grasping weapons and allowing armor to adjust to the form rather than get sucked into it (allowing armed and armor were-creature versions). The one thing this kinda fogs up is the limitation of spellcasting. It becomes a bit more difficult to limit spellcasting if the form is technically able to move like a person and speak like a person.

]Onto combat form - I don't think this keeps up with cantrip damage, and that usually done at range. I would boost it.

Any suggestions how you might boost it? Also, I'm not sure I am as worried about the damage potential, since moon druids will have access to more HP and allow them to soak attacks. Plus, with abilities such as pack tactics, grapple (as found in the giant crab entry), rampage, and such to boost combat without adding to direct damage, do you feel the damage still needs to be increased?


*Shrugs* Do what you want. I'm still saying that you're making things far too complicated. You're trying to plan for every tiny thing, when 99% of the time? Its irrelevant. Its the same argument I hear from people that hoard things, or carry around a giant purses. "Well, I might need this!" "It expired three years ago - and its still unopened." Yes, that does happen. Making up stats for something that might possibly happen is not really relevant. Now, quoting stats that you actually experience in game? That's relevant.

Cut the fat, make things simple. Keep the most relevant rolls that do come up in your game, and then check the book if something more is ever needed in that 1% niche situation. Otherwise, its just a lot of book keeping for no point. And no one likes that.

Then this isn't for you. But I'm not talking about replacing or re-implementing a ribbon ability or something that is pure flavor. I'm adjusting actual class features that, believe it or not, have a concrete impact on the GAME. Yes, this is a role playing game, and so the story cannot be left out of the equation, but if this weren't a game, why would you need any rules? Just do freeform or a group storytelling. I'm not trying to bog the game down, and actually feel this change can streamline the game and give the player more flexibility and agency over their powers, as well as have this strange mechanic be more aligned with the philosophy of 5e in general.

That's my review, take it as you will. Good bye

I won't take it at all. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. This thread is for people who, shock shock, care about the mechanics and making them more fun. If you aren't on board (whether that's finding ways to improve what I'm suggesting or even tearing it apart because of my own blind spots towards issues of balance and player enjoyment), then I don't really need your input.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Whenever you gain an ASI from your druid level, you can improve your Wildshape Form's abilities. You may apply a +2 to one Wildshape ability score, +1 to two Wildshape ability scores. You cannot improve your Wildshape ability score higher than 20. You can apply this improvement to each form available, and you can choose a different stat to improve for each form.

In addition, each time you improve your Wildshape ability scores, you can choose 2 abilities from the following list. Each ability can only be taken once. You must meet the minimum level listed for each ability. Each ability chosen can be used in any form you have available.

Level 4 – Keen Senses (Advantage of Perception Checks), Stealth (Advantage of Stealth Checks), Standing Leap, Illumination, Swift (+10ft all movement speeds)

Level 8 – Fly, Blindsight 60ft, Spider Climb, Tough (+2 HP per Druid Level), Natural Armor (+2 AC), Improve Attack Damage (Improve by one die)

Level 12 – Pack Tactics, Charge, Relentless, Constrict, Flyby, Poison, Grapple, Swallow
Do you intend for this to only happen if the druid doesn't take a feat? That kind of makes sense for the wildshape ability scores increases but it feels rather mean with the abilities.

I wouldn't like that I lose a wildshape boost because I chose a feat.

Now, if you mean for this to apply even if you took a feat (or you don't use feats anyway), it would seem to me to be more straightforward forward to just say "at level 4, 8, etc you can . . . "
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Yea, the intention is this happens whether you take a feat or ASI. In my head they are synonymous, so I will clarify this as I work on revisions.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
My suggestion is to have the form give buffs to physical scores, instead of replacement ones.

So a combat form might get:
+4 AC
+4 Str
+2 Dex
+2 Con

And a Scouting form might get
+2 AC
+4 Dex
+30 movement speed
+flight or swim as appropriate to the form.

And a "travel" form might get:
+2 AC
+2 Str
+4 Con
+10 movement

I would still limit large and tiny size by level. I would fluff these up with some other fitting bonuses and attacks and stuff. Maybe add some varieties based on if someone wants their travel form to be a Yak instead of a Horse or a Camel. Add in some scaling bonuses based on level.

I too dislike raiding the MM for animal stats, and I don't find the animal stats to be very nice anyway.
 

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