Critical Role Critical Role Campaign 3 Discussion (SPOILERS)

[overgeeked]

Your first point answers the second. Resurrection is both rare and hard to accomplish in this world. Maybe Keyleth tried to draw them back but they didn't answer, or maybe it was determined before making the attempt that they'd moved on and should be allowed to rest.

Sure. Absolutely possible. As I said it's undeveloped on screen.

Keyleth isn't really a friend, though, just a passing acquaintance. Orym's made it clear that he wasn't that close to her. I really doubt that Keyleth spends her time reincarnating every friend-of-a-friend who dies in battle.

Except that Orym was personally tasked with finding the people who tried to assassinate Keyleth. If I remember right, he was given that task by Keyleth. So we have a situation where the 2nd-level fighter who's given the job of finding the people responsible for trying to murder a 20th-level druid has now found out who made the attempt and can go to Keyleth himself and tell her. "Oh, by the way, my friend died in combat against this person who tried to murder you. How about a little magic to bring her back?" There is no reasonable world where she'd say anything other than yes.

That's what I meant about it being problematic to have low-level characters with direct ties to high-level characters. It undermines the threats. As above, someone tried to kill off a 20th-level druid...so a 2nd-level fighter was sent to investigate. It's nonsensical.

Most importantly, though, can you imagine how that would come across? Bringing in Marisha's old character to save her new one, in one of those hugely-emotional ceremonies? That would be the weirdest case of nepotism/self-interest imaginable.

Marisha had nothing to do with it. Matt okay'ed Liam's character's backstory. Liam decided to have Keyleth as part of his backstory. Matt now has to either honor that backstory or deny it. If he honors it, there's no logical way besides a fudged roll or overly convenient distractions to keep Keyleth from helping...which utterly undermines the threats to the PCs. If he denies it, he undermines the story-focused nature of their play. "Yes, you can have connections with Keyleth, but no, she can never help you in any way whatsoever."

 

[OB1]

Marisha had nothing to do with it. Matt okay'ed Liam's character's backstory. Liam decided to have Keyleth as part of his backstory. Matt now has to either honor that backstory or deny it. If he honors it, there's no logical way besides a fudged roll or overly convenient distractions to keep Keyleth from helping...which utterly undermines the threats to the PCs. If he denies it, he undermines the story-focused nature of their play. "Yes, you can have connections with Keyleth, but no, she can never help you in any way whatsoever."

Except that there is an additional complication with Laudna's backstory that could provide another way to resolve this. Keyleth could want to help (especially because of the connection to the Briarwoods) but is unable to due to the nature of what Laudna is (was).

She could refuse to help out of fear of helping Delilah Briarwood's ultimate plan, could try to help but have the ritual fail, could try to help but bring back the 'original' soul of Laudna, could try to help but end up bringing back Delilah in Laudna's body, could try to help and successfully bring back the Laudna we know.

Before the ritual, some combination of Pike and Keyleth could have this exact conversation with BH, explaining the uncertainties and unknowns around the attempt, and the group could decide to not move forward.

Bottom line, I see no reason to block the attempt via Keyleth and/or Pike. The end result will likely result from a conversation between DM and Player and then a few dice rolls, the same as it would if it is any other NPC the players try to engage to get the job done.

 

[Mort]

Marisha had nothing to do with it. Matt okay'ed Liam's character's backstory. Liam decided to have Keyleth as part of his backstory. Matt now has to either honor that backstory or deny it. If he honors it, there's no logical way besides a fudged roll or overly convenient distractions to keep Keyleth from helping...which utterly undermines the threats to the PCs. If he denies it, he undermines the story-focused nature of their play. "Yes, you can have connections with Keyleth, but no, she can never help you in any way whatsoever."

Considering high level characters exist and CAN do things like Reincarnation, the threat level is already different. My personal view is that if you have things like raise dead, resurrection etc. being all convoluted about why they don't happen "in this case" is actually more hackneyed than if they're then used.

It's the same reason I absolutely hate adventures (Pathfinder is notorious for this) that hamstring high level abilities like legend lore, teleportation, divinations etc, for "reasons." Either make the ability available or don't, don't pretend it is (or will be) available and then yank it when the time comes up.

Now in this particular case? I trust that Matt, Marisha et all. will do what's best/most fun for their game and the story. WIll be interesting to see how it all sorts out.

One thing to add. In a "regular" game, I would NEVER have a player sit out for over a game session!?! It's just no fun for that player or for the table. One way streaming content like this is different.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

One thing to add. In a "regular" game, I would NEVER have a player sit out for over a game session!?! It's just no fun for that player or for the table. One way streaming content like this is different.

Unless they can somehow bring Laudna back within one episode, I doubt Marisha will be on the bench for long...

Spoiler: Minor Campaign Two Spoilers

If memory serves, Taliesin's second character in Campaign Two was ready to be introduced the episode after Mollymauk died, but the other players didn't get around to actually following up on the plot hook leading to him until the week after. I imagine Marisha will be back playing a backup character in similarly short order, regardless of how things ultimately go with Laudna.

 

[overgeeked]

Except that there is an additional complication with Laudna's backstory that could provide another way to resolve this. Keyleth could want to help (especially because of the connection to the Briarwoods) but is unable to due to the nature of what Laudna is (was).

She could refuse to help out of fear of helping Delilah Briarwood's ultimate plan, could try to help but have the ritual fail, could try to help but bring back the 'original' soul of Laudna, could try to help but end up bringing back Delilah in Laudna's body, could try to help and successfully bring back the Laudna we know.

Before the ritual, some combination of Pike and Keyleth could have this exact conversation with BH, explaining the uncertainties and unknowns around the attempt, and the group could decide to not move forward.

There's a lot of mixing in-character and out-of-character knowledge and tossing in random potential complications in this post. Healing magic works on whatever Matt calls revenants. There's nothing in the mechanics stopping raise dead or reincarnate from working on Laudna. According to Matt's bring back the dead house rules you call to the soul of the person, either they answer or they don't. Then there's the roll. Pass or fail. The only exception or complication to this we've seen in the entire time of CR live plays is Molly, Lucien, and Kingsley. Same soul, just fragments...or Matt and Taliesin set up the character to be a roulette wheel of personalities on death. It's possible Matt (and Marisha) set up Laudna to do something different with death and coming back. But we don't know. It strikes me as an odd assumption to make that doesn't really have any evidence as yet. Totally possible, sure. But no reason to assume.

Bottom line, I see no reason to block the attempt via Keyleth and/or Pike. The end result will likely result from a conversation between DM and Player and then a few dice rolls, the same as it would if it is any other NPC the players try to engage to get the job done.

In story, there's no reason not to use them and their resources. But that's not the only consideration. Relying on high-level NPCs to solve their problems undermines the PCs as main characters. If anything goes wrong, they can always just call in the big guns...which utterly undercuts any and all threats and consequences. It's one of the big reasons you don't let PCs have those kinds of connections.

 

[wicked cool]

Unless they can somehow bring Laudna back within one episode, I doubt Marisha will be on the bench for long...

Spoiler: Minor Campaign Two Spoilers

If memory serves, Taliesin's second character in Campaign Two was ready to be introduced the episode after Mollymauk died, but the other players didn't get around to actually following up on the plot hook leading to him until the week after. I imagine Marisha will be back playing a backup character in similarly short order, regardless of how things ultimately go with Laudna.

She’s the only 1 not to have missed a single episode

 

[wicked cool]

There's a lot of mixing in-character and out-of-character knowledge and tossing in random potential complications in this post. Healing magic works on whatever Matt calls revenants. There's nothing in the mechanics stopping raise dead or reincarnate from working on Laudna. According to Matt's bring back the dead house rules you call to the soul of the person, either they answer or they don't. Then there's the roll. Pass or fail. The only exception or complication to this we've seen in the entire time of CR live plays is Molly, Lucien, and Kingsley. Same soul, just fragments...or Matt and Taliesin set up the character to be a roulette wheel of personalities on death. It's possible Matt (and Marisha) set up Laudna to do something different with death and coming back. But we don't know. It strikes me as an odd assumption to make that doesn't really have any evidence as yet. Totally possible, sure. But no reason to assume.

In story, there's no reason not to use them and their resources. But that's not the only consideration. Relying on high-level NPCs to solve their problems undermines the PCs as main characters. If anything goes wrong, they can always just call in the big guns...which utterly undercuts any and all threats and consequences. It's one of the big reasons you don't let PCs have those kinds of connections.

Strongly disagree. Done in novels all the time and I see no reason why low level characters can’t have those resources available. Tomb of annihilation premise was people are dying due to at some point being raised backup
There has to be consequences to this though

 

[overgeeked]

Done in novels all the time

Important to note that RPGs are not novels. What works in one medium doesn’t necessarily work in another. This is a prime example. In a novel, the writer can just have the main characters not go for help all the time. In RPGs, you have to convince the players to not take the easy way out. I don’t know about you, but in my experience, the players will take the easy way out all the time every time.

 

[wicked cool]

Important to note that RPGs are not novels. What works in one medium doesn’t necessarily work in another. This is a prime example. In a novel, the writer can just have the main characters not go for help all the time. In RPGs, you have to convince the players to not take the easy way out. I don’t know about you, but in my experience, the players will take the easy way out all the time every time.

Agree but they are working for a high level character who also offered to help

 

[jgsugden]

I highly doubt that there will not be a dead raising spell in the next few sessions for Laudna. There is interest in the PC, and there are available resources.

The dice, however, may take her away permanently.

I'd put it at over a 50% chance Laudna is returned before the end of next session - and may return fully alive if Keyleth brings her back.