D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Noctem]

I think the key here is: 5e is not trying to offer a completely consistent and fully-defined set of rules. There's no reference in the usual damage process to "excess" damage, only to "remaining" damage, but the polymorph rules talk about "excess" damage. But that's because you are assumed to be able to figure it out.

And that's honestly a better design most of the time for most players. But it does mean that there is simply nothing in the game rules as written that fully defines/resolves some ambiguities.

Which is both a blessing and a curse imo because of how much time and resources they are now having to spend explaining all of these things that should have just been (imo) explained in the first place ESPECIALLY if you're going to have Adventure League for example. You should never go from one DM to another in AL and have different rules. This is something that's actually specifically stated in AL guidelines, and yet, that happens quite often. So what causes that? The ambiguities which are the product of deliberate design choice. So in conclusion it's nice to see that some people think this gives them more creative freedom but imo there's no barrier to creative freedom with having a solid rules base for everyone to use and the modify as they see fit. You're only limited by your own imagination and willpower.

 

[seebs]

Having worked significantly on trying to write formal systems for things that aren't even as complicated as what D&D tries to implement, I will say that I don't think it's possible to eradicate the problem, and honestly I've had less of this in 5e than I have seen in any previous D&D (or Pathfinder). This discussion is, compared to similar ones I've seen on Pathfinder (including specifically about disintegrate interacting with other at-zero procs), relatively friendly, polite, and coherent, and people have for the most part been better able to frame their arguments in a useful way, because the rules don't encourage the kind of "it doesn't have to make sense, it's a rule" view that tends to show up elsewhere.

I've had people argue that, in Pathfinder, if there is not an explicit rule for allowing a given thing to ignite things, it can't, as a result of which a dogmatic view would lead you to believe that if you need to walk across molten lava, one functional solution would be to lay down a thick coating of gunpowder, which won't sink into it, and which no rule says will be ignited by contact with molten lava.

 

[Violent Solace]

Ok I've been reading this thread for too long to not throw in my thoughts and i have to say its pretty ing solid but you wont like it ehem, The druid does NOT get dusted (unfortunately) i looked it over as objectively as possible and can say that RAW supports this (again unfortunately) as follows

as the spell works:
Did it hit resolve,
If so do damage resolve
Is the target at zero If so dust

However the druid reverts back to humanoid for during the phase in wich thay take damage this is evident in two things

one the damage from wild shape carries over to the druids original form

two the druid is not effected by the standard effect of droping to zero ie falling unconscious and death saving throws

Therefore RAW does support that the effects of dropping to zero hp happens after wild shape revolves

as much as i enjoy the idea of the druid being dusted ther is no evidence that contradicts what i have stated in raw
Therfore IS RAW though the rules of either do not specifically state in text wich comes first but this is the only logical resolution to the data in the book and therfore in the book *

Besides the RAI is more important because text without an intention is text without purpose and a rulebook without a purpose is not a rule book

Feel free to be stubborn and tell me im wrong without even considering my logic but i will not bother with half baked rebuttals with no valid reasoning behind them if you are going to try to change my mind it will have to be good

* this does not mean that you have to rule it this way every dm is intitled to runing their gam how they see fit

 

[Maxperson]

Therefore RAW does support that the effects of dropping to zero hp happens after wild shape revolves

This isn't possible as it it written. 0 is the TRIGGER. It can only be the trigger if stop at 0 hit points and check for things that happen at 0, then the extra damage that was left over gets applied. Since you've already checked for effects at 0, which is what allows the wild shape to end and the druid to revert, the spell also triggered at 0 dusting the druid.

You can argue which order things happen in, which might affect dusting, but it's hard to argue that you go past the trigger before checking the trigger.

 

[jaelis]

as the spell works:
Did it hit resolve,
If so do damage resolve
Is the target at zero If so dust

That's not what the spell actually says, but yes if you interpret it that way then I reckon your conclusion holds.

However, did you catch that Crawford addressed this in Sage Advice?

What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate? Does the druid simply leave beast form?

The druid turns to dust, since the spell disintegrates you the instant you drop to 0 hit points.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Dead as dust in my game. Then again, I'm a "killer DM", so what did you expect? The way I look at it...specific trumps general. I view "change into a different shape/form" as less specific than "disintegrates a target that fails a save". So...yeah...dead.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[jaelis]

The more interesting question is WHAT POWERS OF NECROMANCY DOES IT TAKE TO BRING BACK THE DUSTED DRUID AFTER TWO YEARS??!!??!!

Yeah you think with reincarnation it would have to come back on a different topic.

 

[Immoralkickass]

Wow thread necro. Not sure if this will ever come up since i am currently playing a druid, but if it does, I'm going to direct my DM to this thread, hope he gets a headache from this and decide to do the easier option: Disintegrate the druid's ally.

 

[Dausuul]

Feel free to be stubborn and tell me im wrong without even considering my logic...

I'm trying to consider your logic, but it doesn't make any sense. You seem to be trying to argue that you can somehow revert from Wild Shape as a result of taking damage equal to your hit points, yet never actually be at zero hit points. Which is not true. The RAW is pretty darn clear on that: You drop to zero, and then you turn back.

Per Wild Shape: "You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die."

If you get hit by disintegrate for damage exceeding your hit points, you drop to zero hit points. That triggers things that watch for you dropping to zero. In this case, there are two such things: Wild Shape, and disintegrate. Wild Shape sees that you've gone to zero, and turns you back into human form. Disintegrate sees that you've gone to zero, and turns you into a pile of dust.

You could argue that you should get turned into dust first, and then the pile of dust gets turned back into a human. That would be a plausible if peculiar interpretation of RAW. But there's no way to get around the disintegrate trigger. You dropped to zero; therefore you have to get turned to dust at some point.