D&D 5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen - a solid D effort.

[dd.stevenson]

In 1999, maybe. In 2014 everybody is in the internet and looks up their hobbies, joins Facebook groups, all sorts of things. Even my grandma uses the internet for knitting patterns.

Of the six people in my D&D group, I am the only one who reads about the game online.

This veers away from the topic of the thread, but I suspect it's a question of value add. Morrus' grandma gains knitting patterns by using the internet. Over the past few years, what might players (who already have a group) have gained by reading about D&D online?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah, but those old AD&D modules say *right in the book* that they were originally created for tournament play.

I don't have my hard copy in front of me (my friend has it), but on page 1 of download version (for AL DMs) it says right there "Adventurer's League" and on page 2 there's a section on Encounters play.

Welcome to a special introductory edition of the
Hoard
of the Dragon Queen
™ adventure, designed specifically
for D&D Encounters™ (an official in-store play program)
and the D&D Adventurers League™ (the official D&D
organized play system).

 

[FitzTheRuke]

So you're saying HotDQ is more sandbox than linear adventure? That if the players decide to off in an unanticipated (but not illogical) direction, the book supports you in handling that?

I wouldn't say it's very sandboxy, no. But linear does not always equal railroad, or if you want to call it a railroad just because it's linear, than I would argue that railroad doesn't have to always be bad way to play the game. Don't get me wrong, I want player decisions to matter, and those who are complaining that the only BIG choice the players have in HotDQ is to participate in the adventure or don't participate in the adventure.

I see plenty of little choices. The adventure doesn't spell-out exactly what to do if the players make a medium-sized choice that's off-script, but it gives suggestions on ways to roll with most reasonable possibilities. Basically, as long as the players buy into the story (which shouldn't be hard to do if the DM doesn't spend time treating it like it's stupid - it's not if you don't play it that way.) they will probably be happy to go along with all the big "railroad" moments even if the adventure hadn't been written that way.

Most players I know make characters that would actually want to go on an adventure. You know, adventurers. So they're generally pretty quick to jump on any hook that seems reasonable.

As far as some of the complaints like "The dragon doesn't kill you for some stupid reason" goes, I think it's pretty simple (and pretty much spelled-out): It never wanted to be there in the first place, thinks the whole thing is beneath it, and has probably been flying around for hours by the time you "confront" it. Why bother to psychotically murder you when it could just as easily head home?

The same argument was made about the half-dragon not killing you. He stabs you while you're down. Does he really need to check your pulse and stab you again? Does he have some way to know you have one death-save remaining? He leaves you for dead on the battlefield having defeated you in front of a crowd. It's the most likely way for it to go, but other possibilities are mentioned.

Ah, whatever. I'll have a better understanding of it after I run it.

Hey, I didn't notice - was the whole OP based on reading it or on running it?

 

[GX.Sigma]

As far as some of the complaints like "The dragon doesn't kill you for some stupid reason" goes, I think it's pretty simple (and pretty much spelled-out): It never wanted to be there in the first place, thinks the whole thing is beneath it, and has probably been flying around for hours by the time you "confront" it. Why bother to psychotically murder you when it could just as easily head home?

It sticks around long enough to psychotically murder a bunch of guards who were doing no damage to it. Why wouldn't it toast the PCs with a single breath, then go home?

The same argument was made about the half-dragon not killing you. He stabs you while you're down. Does he really need to check your pulse and stab you again? Does he have some way to know you have one death-save remaining?

Player characters always seem to know somehow, so it's fair to assume this badass 6th-level fighter knows. It doesn't say he unwittingly lets them live. Also, there are medics standing by who immediately stabilize the character, and the mayor gives the fallen character a healing potion. He would definitely notice that.

Sure, these things have in-story explanations (stupid ones). That's why I said "for some stupid reason," not "for no reason."

My point is, those encounters suck because the PCs' actions don't matter to the outcome. If the PCs fight the dragon, it kills some guards and goes home. If the PCs don't fight the dragon, it kills some guards and goes home. What's the point of the PCs even being there? It's a waste of time at the game table, and there are enough of those already.

 

[Ricochet]

In 1999, maybe. In 2014 everybody is in the internet and looks up their hobbies, joins Facebook groups, all sorts of things. Even my grandma uses the internet for knitting patterns.

Of the six people in my D&D group, I am the only one who reads about the game online.

I can second this in all of my RPG groups (7,6,4 people respectively). I hadn't heard of it until a week or so ago myself (well I'd heard the term reading previews here on EN World, but figured it was something for the american game stores and cons), and I certainly don't have any of my dozens of role-playing friends who has ever participated in anything like it. It might be big many places, but here in my Danish mid-sized town, there isn't anything of the sort. Might be a language-barrier thing?

Also, dd.stevenson has a good point (at least for strictly non-GMs players)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I finished episode one of HotDQ for Encounters on Wed. Rather, it finished my players. Unlike the OP, though, I don't really blame the module (yeah, it's got it's failings, but some are just the nature of an adventure meant for organized play) so much as the system. 1st level characters are pretty fragile and don't have many resources, yet the module assumes they're going to go on multiple 'missions' all night in order to reach 2nd level in time for the next episode. It's not like the guy writing the module ignored the encounter guidelines (no overleveled elite controllers this time), which call for 6-8 med-hard encounters. Yep, that's about what's in Episode 1: 8 encounters ('missions'), a couple easy or pointless, some pretty hard. Nope, a 1st level party can't really do that.

I also ran Seek the Keep & Dragon Attack as a 2hr mini-event (repeatedly) at a con over labor day with similarly poor results. Most parties just plain died to the barrage of random (50% chance per 100') and obligatory encounters. The one party that did better had a wizard casting Sleep on Kobolds and Magic Missile at the dragon. That worked out OK, still had plenty of dropped characters and everyone was tapped out after only two 'missions.'


The game just doesn't quite work as presented at 1st level. I'm assuming there's a sweet spot starting later - 2nd, 3rd, 5th, sometime - where 6-8 encounters are realistic and encounters and classes start to balance and the whole becomes more playable.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I don't have my hard copy in front of me (my friend has it), but on page 1 of download version (for AL DMs) it says right there "Adventurer's League" and on page 2 there's a section on Encounters play.

I'm looking at my hard copy. It does *not* contain that language, or similar language, anywhere that I can find. The terms Adventurer's League and D&D Encounters aren't even included in the product identity copyright disclaimer that covers all the names of relevant D&D books and products.

It does contain very fine print that says "Disclaimer: The following adventure contains chromatic dragons.Wizards of the Coast cannot be held liable for characters who are incinerated, dissolved, frozen, poisoned, or electrocuted," though.

One linear adventures -- they aren't all bad; as pointed out they're necessary for organized play, and a linear adventure that at least allows that the PCs might take other paths is good design. After all, regardless of what the PCs do from their perspective the adventure is linear. The adventure must at least provide the illusion of meaningful choice to the players. As pointed out, though, HotDQ has some elements where the choices and outcomes are forced (why are two episodes built around requiring the PCs to hire out as caravan guards? why not other options?) with an NPC plot-immunity being the most egregious.

As a result in my view it isn't a great adventure, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun -- hence my C grade. Heck, a quite popular and famous adventure -- DL1, Dragons of Despair -- has a great site-based adventure within it but suffers from the same problem as HotDQ to an even greater degree with forced player choice, directed outcomes, and both NPC and PC plot-immunity. DL1 gets a D- from me, but lots of people love it.

 

[MerricB]

I'm looking at my hard copy. It does *not* contain that language, or similar language, anywhere that I can find. The terms Adventurer's League and D&D Encounters aren't even included in the product identity copyright disclaimer that covers all the names of relevant D&D books and products.

Correct. The Encounters PDF has additional text to convert the adventure to Encounters; in particular, it provides guidelines as to what encounters to run to make sessions fit in an Encounters format. The adventure as a whole is not designed for Encounters. Heck, it's very, very far from what an Encounters adventure should and has been.

If you've played a Pathfinder Adventure Path, you've played through the style of adventure in Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

Cheers!

 

[Thaumaturge]

Correct. The Encounters PDF has additional text to convert the adventure to Encounters; in particular, it provides guidelines as to what encounters to run to make sessions fit in an Encounters format. The adventure as a whole is not designed for Encounters. Heck, it's very, very far from what an Encounters adventure should and has been.

If you've played a Pathfinder Adventure Path, you've played through the style of adventure in Hoard of the Dragon Queen.

Cheers!

Agreed.

Thaumaturge.

 

[doctorhook]

I don't have my hard copy in front of me (my friend has it), but on page 1 of download version (for AL DMs) it says right there "Adventurer's League" and on page 2 there's a section on Encounters play.

Unfortunately, all you've said here is that your Adventurer's League copy of HotDQ starts by talking about using HotDQ as a part of the Adventurer's League.