How many hit points do you have?

[Dungeonman]

Why do villians in comics get knocked out (not killed), imprisoned (and released), or die and resurrect?
1) Genre
2) To get readers hooked on a serial format comic
3) Batman has a no-kill code

Genre is an answer, but is it really *the* answer or is just a self-reinforcing label?

 

[Balesir]

I regard hit points as roughly a victory/momentum marker. The lower the character's hit points, the more the momentum of battle is turning against him/her. Hence a rousing word from a battle captain, or a word of blessing from a cleric, can re-invigorate the character and restore momentum, turning the tide. I assume that the PC's emotional and cognitive state corresponds to that of the player - for instance, if the player knows that his/her PC is low on hit points but is relaxed because s/he can see that his/her PC is in no danger because the other PCs have the situation under control, then I take it for granted that that player's PC is feelingthe same thing: s/he is in no real position to contribute to the fight, but is content to stand by while his/her allies clean things up.

This is a nice and fairly clear explanation of how you see the meaning of hit points translating into the game world, but is it not essentially saying, as I did, that the character has a nuanced understanding of his or her hit points and can make decisions based on them?

Sure, the character likely isn't thinking of them as "hit points" - and probably isn't imputing a numerical value to them - but they surely instinctively understand where they are as regards "momentum" and morale/spirit/energy? Do we not imagine them having, in fact, sufficiently nuanced an understanding of these things that they are able to take decisions based on that understanding? It would seem to me that this suggests the first option in the poll, not the second or third...

 

[Aenghus]

Why do villians in comics get knocked out (not killed), imprisoned (and released), or die and resurrect?
1) Genre
2) To get readers hooked on a serial format comic
3) Batman has a no-kill code

Genre is an answer, but is it really *the* answer or is just a self-reinforcing label?

Genre can be either cause or effect or even some of both at the same time. A game's style will produce a genre from the ongoing consequences of play, what can happen, what does happen, and what can't happen. Even trying to avert strong genre tropes can result in a genre IMO.

Strong genre conventions like "one successful attack should rarely kill a healthy PC" or "superhero secret identities are effective" need to be supported by mechanics such as hit points or by agreement with all the players. Weak genre conventions don't necessarily need rules support as much.

"Random deathtrap dungeon" is a genre where skill can help reduce the risks incurred but not avoid them entirely due to the everpresent randomness. Eventually everyone's number comes up unless there's fudging, so don't get attached to your PCs or bother with long-term plots.

Whereas "fantasy soap opera" is going to have lots of relationship-based plots and less violence and PC turnover.

Neither of these would probably suit players looking for strong tactical or wargaming elements in play.

IMO because some sort of genre is inevitable, its often better to decide what you are aiming for deliberately, rather than have it develop inadvertently. Accidental genre can be great but it's a crapshoot and I've seen a lot of disappointment from refusal to make decisions in this area.

.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hence my comment, either upthread or on another of these healing threads, that 4e healing works the same way in the metagame as in the fiction: it provides comfort and reassurance both to the PC and to the player.

In this, the 4e HP mechanic is really quite good. This is what I want out of a mechanic! It helps me play my character well. It could be better (4e could have gone whole hog with this idea and just owned it and done a lot of interesting things with it independent of martial healing), but it's good for that.

It just doesn't fit as comfortably into the model of HP that I tend to want to use in D&D, which is that HP is an injury mechanic for heroic fantasy where injuries don't do much until they're deadly.

 

[diaglo]

through years of training in their class they have learned how fragile they are.
they know their hps, their ability scores in relation to others of their race, their abilities to climb, jump, run, etc...

they didn't become heroes in the dark. they learned from others or were touched by the gods. mostly they know what is written on their sheet in the game sense. the player knows it on the metagame lvl.

 

[Hussar]

through years of training in their class they have learned how fragile they are.
they know their hps, their ability scores in relation to others of their race, their abilities to climb, jump, run, etc...

they didn't become heroes in the dark. they learned from others or were touched by the gods. mostly they know what is written on their sheet in the game sense. the player knows it on the metagame lvl.

While I might not totally agree with this, I suppose, in play, this is exactly how it works out. Players are incapable of making decisions without knowledge of their character sheets. I, the player, know exactly what is on my sheet and my decisions will always be coloured by that knowledge. That's unavoidable. So, effectively, my character is going to act as if he (or she) knows what's on the character sheet too.

IOW, what my character does is going to be affected by my current HP, no matter how much I the player might want to separate HP from the game world.

 

[pemerton]

This is a nice and fairly clear explanation of how you see the meaning of hit points translating into the game world, but is it not essentially saying, as I did, that the character has a nuanced understanding of his or her hit points and can make decisions based on them?

Sure, the character likely isn't thinking of them as "hit points" - and probably isn't imputing a numerical value to them - but they surely instinctively understand where they are as regards "momentum" and morale/spirit/energy? Do we not imagine them having, in fact, sufficiently nuanced an understanding of these things that they are able to take decisions based on that understanding? It would seem to me that this suggests the first option in the poll, not the second or third...

I can see your argument.

But I can also think of counterexamples - for instance, when PCs enter combat there is not, as yet, any momentum but the players know (and act on) PC hit point totals. There are 100' cliff counterexamples too.

Plus there's the knowledge a player has, when hp are very low, that any lucky shot will knock the PC unconscious, which I don't think the PC has.

For me, these are examples - perhaps marginal ones - where the "momentum" is established purely at the metagame level, but doesn't translate into the fiction.

To allude to [MENTION=6775975]Dungeonman[/MENTION]'s terrific posts above, I think these are the points were genre-blindnes/lack of self-awareness kicks in: the players know that genre tropes will be supported (because they have the hp information to tell them) but the PCs don't. Fpr intsance, they still feel lucky every time they fall straight down 100' and don't die.

 

[Balesir]

Fpr intsance, they still feel lucky every time they fall straight down 100' and don't die.

For the 100' drop case, I generally assume that the character feels that they could probably survive such a drop (by grabbing handholds, rolling down the slope or whatever). But they also know it will be unpleasant to experience it, as losing hit points always is. Whether the unpleasantness manifests as pain and bruising or just the angst of being outmanoeuvred and/or demoralised in a fight, it's not a situation that any sane person would voluntarily expose themselves to needlessly - hence the "jumping out of a sixth storey window just because they can" scenario doesn't generally happen. If the building was on fire and their way out was aflame, however, it could certainly be an option they would consider - just as Indy or Conan might do in a similar "tight spot", relying on their athletic or acrobatic prowess (not to mention dumb luck!) to get away with it. If jumping seemed likely to be less unpleasant than running the gauntlet of flame, it might be an option they would even choose.

Edit: On the topic of "genre blindness" and genre tropes in general. I do have sympathy for players who feel that, even with genre assumptions in play, they want to find some rationalisation acceptable to themselves concerning why their character takes the actions they take and believe the things they believe. "It's in the genre" is fine as a justification as to why the rules work a certain way, but the players may still need to find a model of what is actually happening that makes sense of their character for them. One advantage of separating such justifications/rationalisations from the rules mechanics is that individual players do not need to come up with the same justifications/rationalisations - they just need to ensure that their own rationalisation explains whatever the rules say happens.

 

[pemerton]

In this, the 4e HP mechanic is really quite good.

<snip>

It just doesn't fit as comfortably into the model of HP that I tend to want to use in D&D, which is that HP is an injury mechanic for heroic fantasy where injuries don't do much until they're deadly.

Whereas I have no real desire to use such a mechanic. If I want injuries in my game I want them to be somewhat realistic in their consequences - hence my preference for Rolemaster, RQ etc for that more gritty style of game.

 

[Dungeonman]

To allude to Dungeonman's terrific posts above, I think these are the points were genre-blindnes/lack of self-awareness kicks in: the players know that genre tropes will be supported (because they have the hp information to tell them) but the PCs don't.

Thought experiment if genre-blindnes/lack of self-awareness did NOT kick in:

Heroes around the land with a modicum of intelligence and self-awareness realize that they're better than regular folk, and that there are universal laws that apparently apply only to their kind.

They know that when they go into battle in full health, rarely or never is anyone taken down early in the fight; but rather through attrition. This is predictable enough that they can plan their tactics accordingly. Some adventurers can even predict that they'll never, ever be bloodied right away. Other adventurers can accurately predict that the first wound from an axe swing is never dangerous but a dozen axe wounds are.

They can ably predict that their opponents rarely or never outclass them, or they will rarely or never be put in a position to fight opponents that would outclass them. They remember goblins being worthy opponents at the onset, and after a year or so, they're taking on dragons and demons, as if they're getting better and better.

In comparison, they see that regular folk are prone at any time to a knockout or deadly strike regardless of their state of health, and thus cannot predict the ebb and flow of combat, plus these regular folk are scared of having to randomly confront an opponent who can best them and kill them dead.

The adventurers know they didn't do anything in particular to earn this destiny. They didn't bath in a magic pool of immortality or have a special sword that empowers them so. The only thing they do differently is to take on quests that others would consider foolhardy, and if they survive, they get better at it. They even get better at other skills that have nothing to do with the quest, and they can get better at these skills faster than regular folk who practice and train at it for weeks or months or years.

At first, this wonderous phenomenon is kept secret, too embarrasing and too crazy to confess. But after a few weeks, the elephant in the room is so obvious,they hesitantly share their musings. It starts with sitting by the fire at nights and discussions about luck and destiny. Then it morphs into meetings at adventuring halls, drunken boasts in pubs, and ballads sung by minstrels: stories about Karma that adventurers earn and regular folk lack.

Eventually, the Adventuring Industry is born: "Become an Adventurer! Risk your Life for Fame and Glory.. and mostly importantly... Karma! Do you really want to be a Regular guy in the King's army, or do you want to be a Warrior with more Karma after a few days in an Official Credited Adventuring Dungeon? Do you really want to spend a decade in a tower learning that Fireball spell, or do you want to unlock your very own Fireball after just a few weeks shooting Magic Missiles with your fellow Adventurers? Stop being a regular person, stop waiting for other Adventurers to save your town. Yes, you can be an Adventurer today, and get yourself some Karma! Find any Official Adventure Recruitment Centre, and find out if you qualify! (If you don't qualify, please see our Henchman Wanted section.)"


EDIT: Not to mock anyone's rp style, of course. This was a thought experiment of what it could mean for a PC to "know" their hit points. As much as I'd love to see a D&D system that encourages that...