Inherent bonus to Int and Skill Points.

[The Gryphon]

The argument is:

When I don a Belt of Giant's Strength +4, I receive a +2 bonus to anything and everything modified by Strength: Strength checks, combat abilities, carry weight, etc.

When I don a Headband of Intellect +4, I receive +2 bonus to anything and everything modified by Intelligence - except skill points.

Why the dichotomy?

There is no dichotomy. Stat boosting items only grant temporary bonuses.

A dichotomy would be created if an Intelligence boosting item could grant a permanent bonus to skill points.

 

[Storyteller01]

Need to polish could only mean you need more practice...so train more,. I dont see the relationship with haing more int there.

Again, the master practiced for 60 years...practice was the key not having more intelligence.

But there is a difference between practice and exercise. practice doesn't instantly give knowlegde just because you do it. You look at what you are doing, think about what is wrong, why doesn't this or that work. Without some kind of introspection and analysis, you cannot progress any further, no matter what the skill is.

Everything out there, and I mean EVERYTHING, has books written by others for you to study and improve you performance. I've seen books on arm wrestling technique and tarot card interpretation. If anyone has experience with tarot, you know that it's all about intuition, yet people out there have created TEXTBOOKS for you to improve your readings.

The master who has trained for 60 years isn't a master because he punched a brick one million times. He's a master because his introspection allows him to understand the underlying physics and apply it to any situation, not just the brick. They have made intuitive concepts that mathematians spend their whole lives working equations for...

Being a social character also means learning to observe people (again, that study of psychology, in one form or another). A forceful personality is great, but knowing when, where, and how to apply it will make you even better (more skill points for Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, etc.). Hannibal Lecture is a good (if evil) example of this.

 

[nothing to see here]

It's hard not to argue that the reduced benefit of INT bonuses does not present a hole in the rules -- even if there is disagreement on how serious there is.

Our group made inherrent bonuses retroactive. For other bonuses we used the following.

Based on your (modified) INT and HD you calculate how many Bonus skill points you WOULD have had your INT score always been that high. Upon first donning the item you gain these bonus skill points to spend on skills. Only Int based skills count as class skills -- all others are cross class. Normal max ranks still apply. You note the bonuses next to the item and they apply while wearing it. Upon losing the item, you simply lose the bonuses.

So your fifth level character with his headband of intellect +4 would gain 10 'temporary skill points" that could go to, say a +4 bonus to knowledge arcane and a +3 bonus to jump...or could simply take a +5 bonus to spot...the important thing is -- you only get to choose once per item and you note the bonus with the item so you know what to subtract should it be lost.

less paperwork than it sounds

 

[Storyteller01]

Also the plan part...You can do it without the need to put a 14 in your int...

Again, the master practiced for 60 years...practice was the key not having more intelligence.

But planning involves strategy and observation, both of which are intelligence based skills. The better your Int, the better the plan...

The idea behind my comment of the master who practiced for 60 years was this:

His Str and Dex (most blocks are really deflections)enabled him to apply effective blocks when he was younger. After 60 years of reflection on this and other techniques (using that Int again) he can do it better, even with a reduced Str and Dex (he is using his understanding of the forces involved, rather than just brute force). Could he gain this understanding without the ability to analyze what is going on? Probably not...

He can also teach these new concepts to others, provided they have the intelligence to grasp it (not neccessarily book smarts, but the mind must be able to comprehend the new [and often counter-intuitive] concept on some level. It could be kinesic, spatial, etc.).

Hopefully, the students can combine the ideas with their own Str and Dex, improving the school as a whole (since the students will [Hopefully] use their Int to do the same thing later in their lives.


Sorry for the highjacking guys (personal study involved here...)

As for the items that grant intelligence, (imho)No one can say which would be better. There are examples of people who completely lose all memory, including skills. Then again, there are (admittedly rarer) examples of people who have strokes, and actually GAIN new insight (the brain was forced to reroute the info that went to the destroyed brain cells to the opposite side of the brain. The patient ended up using their previous skills in more artistic or analytical ways).

Personally, if the item was on for a signifigant amount of time, the skills become hard-wired (keeping the skill points).
At the same time, once those points are spent, you can't change your mind later. Helps the wizard compensate for that 2 skill points per level detriment, given the knowledges avaiable.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There is no dichotomy. Stat boosting items only grant temporary bonuses.

Ah, but there *is* a dichotomy, because the Int boosting item *could*, conceivably, grant a temporary bonus to skill points, as well.

But it doesn't even do that, does it?

 

[ARandomGod]

Personally, I don't understand why everyone seems to think that "the only reason to buy a Headband of Intellect was to get more skill points" and "if it can't do that, it should cost less".

Ah. Well, that seems to me to be because you can't understand that there are people out there who are not int based spell casters. Of course, Int. based casters buy the headband for the only thing it does still grant.

Since when is getting skill points an important part of the item?

Since it was an item that grants a boost to int, which it the stat which gives skill points... I'm not sure where your confusion really lies here.

All of the stat-boosting items increase your skill modifiers (from having a higher ability score), ...

Sure, and this one does too... I'm following you.

... and various ones increase others as well (such as a Belt of Giant Strength increasing your attack and damage, Gloves of Dexterity increasing your Reflex Saves, ranged attacks, and Initiative, and a Periapt of Wisdom increasing your Will Saves), and the mental-increasing items increase the Save DCs and Bonus Spells for spellcasters. But since when is gaining skill points such an important part of a Headband of Intellect?

Since the character was not an Int based spellcaster! Ah ha! I may have divined your confusion. You see, there are characters out there who cannot actually cast any "spells". And there are others out there that, while they can cast spells, do not use intelligence in this process.

Why should a Headband of Intellect cost LESS just because it doesn't improve skill points?

Because that's the only thing some characters use the intellect skill FOR.

It still increases your skill modifiers, and if you're a wizard, it increases your Save DCs and Bonus Spells.

Yea. AND if you're a wizard you're more likely to care that it also boosted those skill modifiers, too. Most other classes don't really use skills that need int. (Actually, rogues do quite a bit too, but they still care more about the skill point factor in that skill)

Are you saying that it's underpowered because it doesn't grant any other bonuses ...

Yeeeessss.... But you seem to have realized that...

...(such as a bonus to attacks and damage, or saves, or whatever)?

No, no, no. Not such at THAT. Those bonuses were never granted by intellect. They're saying such as skill points, which is the bonus that is granted by intellect.

By that logic, why would ANYONE pay the same amount for a Cloak of Charisma?

Because they're a charisma based caster?

It's NEVER done ANYTHING but increase skill modifiers for a non-spellcaster. What's your reasoning there? Should a Cloak of Charisma cost less as well?

Perhaps it should... but no, not really, because it never gave anything that's being taken away. I think instead that charisma should be given something else to balance out that stat. But that's a different discussion altogether. Sure, I agree, and I'm certain a majority of others will too, that charisma is definitly a less valuable stat in general than other stats... like, say INT (which is more powerful because it grants skillpoints...). But they're not taking anything away that charisma grants.


OK. Now, that was just because you seemed to be proclaiming ignorance as to why people thought this was an issue. I hope I have been able to help you to be able to see why.

As to the question of why the int boosting items are done this way, well, it's mainly to prevent confusion. The items should only give a temp boost to skill points, but that really is complex to figure out. How are you supposed to learn something and then unlearn it? It just opens a whole can of worms that the designers figured was easier solved by sealing it away in a radioactive proof container and attempting to bury it as deep as possible.

A permanent increase in the INT skill does increas skill points gained from that point on, but only from that point on, because once again it really is complex to go back and figure out skills that you would have gotten retroactively. It's easy to just add and subtract HP. But skills... skills are restricted by a maximum number allowed per skill per level, cross class skills, etc. If you put on that headband at level 12 do you KNOW that you were not maxed out in concentration at level 4? Are you certain? Sure, you are playing an arcane trickster, so you didn't put eveything in every level... but no, that level would have been cross class anyhow so you can't... but what if I?

Well. Suffice it to say that it CAN be done, and done "easily" If and only if careful track of what skill points are put in what skills where and when. If you don't have that all meticulously tracked, it's just not really plausible to go back and DO that.

So, my opinion is that the headband SHOULD grant skill points, And I'll even support thoughts that it can/should do so retroactively. But I also, for game purposes, understand why it does not.

PS. I suggest a wish at high enough levels, to allow you to retroactively gain skill points. Note that, once again, this really can't be honestly accomplished unless you keep very careful track of your level gains and point allocations.

 

[Suzan]

That would be horrendous. Imagine the chaos when the wizard's headband of intellect +4 fails it's save and is destroyed. Good luck readjusting your skill scores.

No, just don't get those skill points on next level up

 

[aglondier]

We always handled it that an Int bonus item gave your level in ranks in the skill bound up into the item. Example, my current headband of intellect +2 (use magic device). When I upgrade it later, I'm planning to link Perception to the next increase, then probably a knowledge skill of some sort. Thus, if I later lose the Item, only those skills are lost.