OOC Kingdom of Ashes (Spies Like Us)

[Laurel]

Things we can give Tain/Ways we can get close:
(1) "Information" about the rebellion - example, we were captives of the rebellion. We don't tell them true stories... just use it as a means to look like we're on his side.

Just have to remember as with the Bluestar, omitting certain parts of the truth is one thing lying out right is another. Since this will be over a long time and involving more them one person, to go this route they have to be planned out very, very carefully and in great detail. Everyones story has to continue to match up, all of which leads to more and more chances of slipping up.

(2) One female PC poses as a female noble of some sort or another. She claims that this rebellion has "taken away" her fiancee either because he willingly joined and was killed or was simply killed by the rebellion. Now, she and her bodyguard and handmaiden/whoever can play, have come to ask Tain's help in avenging her lost love.

The problem here is there isn't a promintent noble that could work. We have seen what Tain has done to them- keeping close eye on them (spies in Oceanus), killed them (Jaine's family), turned them into slaves (AA's sister, Henry H.), or set his own people in charge (Edriss).
Being a distant nobel may help... but I don't think this alone would get Tain's notice. Or if it did very likely he would say cool, here's a mission and send them off.... no chance for more info.

(3) We pose as distant relatives of Jaine - terrified that we will be linked to the rebellion and ask for the king's protection, as well as providing dissent from Jaine's family on her claim to the throne.

What about one of Filmore's family? He may be more of a backround to the rebellion now, but his name was linked for a long time to Jaine's. According to family tree he's still up for kingship too.
Also as the noble houses have houses there we have to be ready for whatever family we pick to know lots about it, and be a convincing 'sure grandpa you just haven't seen me since I was one month old!' for anyone in Thainsport from family.

(4) We use the altered prophecy idea. Claiming that we, when taking by the rebellion in the "liberation" of Oceanus (we'd probably call it the slaughter) happened upon it/overheard something about it/whatever... offer it to him for protection from the deadly Circle.

Again probably a good bet that he will have someone at hand that can figure out it's false. We specifically didn't give mages time to look it over since we figured even they at a much lower level could have figured it out....

(5) We use a decoy NPC that is a "member of the circle" (we pass this off by saying that Xath or L'Aurel has died and this is her, reincarnated). We're here to collect our bounty - but, we want more than just money.

Um... sacrificing a person just doesn't seem right. This is porbably the way that is most likely to get his attention, if the PC also offers to torture the prisoner all the better. he seems to like devious, powerful, and evil those are his qualifications for close freind. But turning someone in, sacrificing them, especially one who is not a prominent part of the rebellion is dooming them to shadow path, death, or some other bad fate.

Possibly combining ideas would be better:
Such as distant noble plan, lost loved one in battle blames rebellion, sees light, hates them and no proof against king, noble sure it is only lies they speak, noble was there for a time has info. for Tain- a willing servant, already saw the rebellion and chose against it, has information.

But something would still be needed moment of, as inspiration hits, decided in advance to string him along... very gently. Need to keep the person attached to Tain.

 

[Laurel]

One of the things we really have to worry about if we want to be close to Tain is the Shadow Path. Some of his uppy ups have walked it, some have not. Anyone that goes should have Undetectable Alignment permanancied on them ahead of time.

Good idea for PC that ends up being good, but if neutral why not let him see it? The less actual covering up we have to do the better.

These people should know as little as possible about the inner workings of the Army of the Phoenix in case they are caught. The less they know, the less can be tortured out of them.

Definite agreement here on this one!

They also shouldn't be spellcasters, or at least obvious spellcasters. I know Blackadder is in Tain's inner circle, but he greatly admired Nightgrove who has a known hatred of spellcasters. It may or may not be more difficult for a spellcaster to get close to Tain, but it's safer not to chance it. For contingencies, put lots of ranks in use magic device.

I don't know that we specifically need to worry about this one. If someone is spell casting for illusion and invisibilty type things it works better then carrying around all those scrolls/wands. Combat spell casters wouldn't be much good on this venture I will agree with that one.

All members should have a "Contingency: Teleport" keyed to go off if their cover is blown. They may be in a no-teleport area, but it at least gives them a chance.

Agree.

You could combine the ideas above. Have one person, as a noble, try to get close to Tain. With him/her will be personal servant(s), who will have access to areas of the palace nobles do not go.

sorry late in reading this This would also get them together in a group

No member of the party should be LG. In order to get close to Tain, any of them may have to do deeds that are downright distasteful, and we don't want any unquallable morality bells going off.

This goes along with the alignment issue, also I don't think many LG would be too keen on the whole shadow and lies type of operation.

No magical appearance altering devices should be used. Any True Seeing can see right through that. Any needed disguises should be mundane.

Hopefully none will be needed, even mundane disguises have to be put on every morning, everytime someone walks in, could possibly see, etc. If during the mission it's needed then yes mundane if possible, but we should try to avoid plannign a need in.....

I'd recommend that all members have at least 1 level of Ranger with favored enemy Draconid. It may become necessary to pretend to be one at some point in the mission. It could be that all of Tain's servants are shadow pathed, and someone with a deep knowledge of the way the species works would have an advantage in pretending to be one.

So we've got one level rogue and one level ranger, right?
I like both ideas, and the ranger gives "a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type" all good when speaking and bluffin' dragons and those shadowed

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

This mission is going to take planning and an excellent story. We can't discount options because it would require the PCs to lie. We want information-not hack and slash.

Moreover, we would not be using prominent nobles in any con that required using a noble... that's the whole point. They have to be obscure enough to avoid catching any major attention... while at the same time having a name to back up their claim at nobility.

Think Matt Damon in Ocean's Eleven: want to be likeable without being overly memorable... convincing without being overbearing.

 

[The_Universe]

This mission is going to take planning and an excellent story. We can't discount options because it would require the PCs to lie. We want information-not hack and slash.

Moreover, we would not be using prominent nobles in any con that required using a noble... that's the whole point. They have to be obscure enough to avoid catching any major attention... while at the same time having a name to back up their claim at nobility.

Think Matt Damon in Ocean's Eleven: want to be likeable without being overly memorable... convincing without being overbearing.

Right - o.

Also, remember that it may take some time to get into Tain's inner circle for any potential minor noble...and that he probably has at least a general idea of who the nobles in his kingdom are. Further, with the possible exception of Edriss, none of his current "inner circle" members are of the noble class - and Edriss can only be included therein because he was trying to fill the County of Hyrwl.

As far as general behavior, Tain's been taking things away from the nobility for some time, now - he bullied the council (presumably) into supporting his claim over Jaine and Filmore's. He's killed major nobles (or had them killed), and consistently isolated powerful nobles from potential allies as their lands are taken by either Draconids, or by his own forces. Of course, all of that assumes that he's controlling the draconids...which he probably is, but we're still not 100% sure of.

Anyway - the point is that being a noble does not seem to guarantee that you'll get close to Tain. He seems to prefer the company of murderers, thieves, and necromancers...at least based on his currently known associates.

 

[The_Universe]

Quote:
You could combine the ideas above. Have one person, as a noble, try to get close to Tain. With him/her will be personal servant(s), who will have access to areas of the palace nobles do not go.
sorry late in reading this This would also get them together in a group

That being said, this might get the servants into the palace, even if the noble never gets all that close to the King. At the very least, the noble would be privy to discussions with the Noble's Council, which is more than you have now.

 

[Laurel]

I'm NOT suggesting a hack and slash

okay.... just to start I didn't discount it if you re-read what I wrote. I have done what you and the others have done take an idea offered and run through what personally I see as problems or issues with the ideas. The only one I discounted was sacrificing a person. All others are still up for debate, and part of working out a plan so far is to throw ideas around and hash them out.... and just because I don't like an idea doesn't mean everyone else does. Even though this isn't a circle thing we as a gaming group do things democratically, if everyone else is keen on an idea we go with it.

I didn't say we should storm the palace nor ever suggested an idea for this mission that involves hack and slash primary methods. So far all of the plans have been for a covert operation involving lies and deciet.

As for the lying, I was simply stating that on BIG issues we needed to have well planned out what each story is, and normally it is easier for a person to say a truth then a lie. It is easier for a person to decieve someone else when speaking a partial truth then a lie, by omitting instead of flagrantly telling a non-truth. It is also harder for a person to find any fault with a partial truth, or an omitted truth. It's easier to find issue with a lie.
The draconids had spies in our camp, he still may. What we tell him can't be far from the truth, that's all I was getting at.

 

[Laurel]

Just re-stating lots of ideas already posted by people.....

So far the top ranking idea, IMO, seems to be:
Actors--One lower noble, possibly related to a noble involved in rebellion.
Rest are servants that accompany noble.
Loved one died by rebellion fault.
Noble hates rebellion, loves the king. Love as in gives king support... or love as in more physical ways, whatever gets the job done
Has some info. on rebellion to entice king closer

guidlines:
1 level rogue
1 level ranger
no magic disguises

This would get them into Tain's view at least, closeness may take time. Give servants leave to roam, listen at doors, possibly move in on Tain or other high up from another direction. Keeps them together so they can dissemble keep track of things should one.... not be able to return thier information is not lost.

Not claiming this to be the only nor in best,just from what I have seen, read, thought through it looks to be the best out there currently.

 

[The_Universe]

okay.... just to start I didn't discount it if you re-read what I wrote. I have done what you and the others have done take an idea offered and run through what personally I see as problems or issues with the ideas. The only one I discounted was sacrificing a person. All others are still up for debate, and part of working out a plan so far is to throw ideas around and hash them out.... and just because I don't like an idea doesn't mean everyone else does. Even though this isn't a circle thing we as a gaming group do things democratically, if everyone else is keen on an idea we go with it.

Right on. No blood, no foul.

I didn't say we should storm the palace nor ever suggested an idea for this mission that involves hack and slash primary methods. So far all of the plans have been for a covert operation involving lies and deciet.

Right - which is probably what any long term mission requires. In true James Bond/Mission Impossible fashion, combat at some point may be unavoidable, but it's not really the focus.

As for the lying, I was simply stating that on BIG issues we needed to have well planned out what each story is, and normally it is easier for a person to say a truth then a lie. It is easier for a person to decieve someone else when speaking a partial truth then a lie, by omitting instead of flagrantly telling a non-truth. It is also harder for a person to find any fault with a partial truth, or an omitted truth. It's easier to find issue with a lie.

All good points.

The draconids had spies in our camp, he still may. What we tell him can't be far from the truth, that's all I was getting at.

That's right - so there's little point obscuring much of what happens in Hyrwl, unless you're going to claim you're not from/never been there.

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

As for the lying, I was simply stating that on BIG issues we needed to have well planned out what each story is, and normally it is easier for a person to say a truth then a lie. It is easier for a person to decieve someone else when speaking a partial truth then a lie, by omitting instead of flagrantly telling a non-truth. It is also harder for a person to find any fault with a partial truth, or an omitted truth. It's easier to find issue with a lie.
The draconids had spies in our camp, he still may. What we tell him can't be far from the truth, that's all I was getting at.

Because this has been stated several times in this thread - acknowledging that we need a detailed totally worked out story has been the main assumption of all suggestions - I assumed you were making a point about how you *didn't* think that a mission based on lies was a good idea.

I apologize if I sounded rude in my response... just the downfall of messageboard community.

However, we do need to remember that even omitted truth still requires the Bluff check to back it up. Any time we are attempting to mislead, we have to have the skills to back it up... doesn't really make it any "easier" - so long as you a attempting to mislead, you are lying.

All of your comments are totally valid and I appreciate them bunches and bunches - that's what we need when formulating a plan.

 

[The_Universe]

Because this has been stated several times in this thread - acknowledging that we need a detailed totally worked out story has been the main assumption of all suggestions - I assumed you were making a point about how you *didn't* think that a mission based on lies was a good idea.

I apologize if I sounded rude in my response... just the downfall of messageboard community.

However, we do need to remember that even omitted truth still requires the Bluff check to back it up. Any time we are attempting to mislead, we have to have the skills to back it up... doesn't really make it any "easier" - so long as you a attempting to mislead, you are lying.

All of your comments are totally valid and I appreciate them bunches and bunches - that's what we need when formulating a plan.

Yeah - messageboards are rough, as we all know.

It would do us all to remember that there's an implied "" with every post. It's a game - and it's fun, no point in getting too worked up about it.

Keep up the good work, gang!