(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

GnomeWorks

Adventurer
Rystil Arden said:
I'm not sure what to do either. I didn't even really mean to critique so much, as I will readily admit that I don't have the answer either. I was just commenting that I wouldn't allow it in my campaign in the current form, and if I was a Judge, I would vote 'No'

Fair enough.

My first thought would be to simply limit the Learning ability to actually monster attacks, not Special Qualities. Not only Quickness, but also most other things I would never want a PC to have are all Special Qualities. For the attacks, I do buy your argument that the Learner's low DC counteracts the ability to pick up extremely powerful attacks.

You're not the first to mention this idea, and I still don't agree with it.

However, as I mentioned in my last post, what if the talent slots required to use an SQ ability were increased? For example, to use quickness or another SQ, you had to expend two or three talent slots, whereas using a non-SQ ability would only take the standard one.
 

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Rystil Arden

First Post
You're not the first to mention this idea, and I still don't agree with it.

However, as I mentioned in my last post, what if the talent slots required to use an SQ ability were increased? For example, to use quickness or another SQ, you had to expend two or three talent slots, whereas using a non-SQ ability would only take the standard one.

I know that I'm not the first, and that's why I didn't offer it until I was asked what I would do (and it is exactly what I would do as a GM). I still don't think that paying extra slots to gain a Special Quality is fair because I find a good number of Special Qualities to be extremely dangerous to allow, particularly Quickness, but there are others. To give you an example, I turned to a random page of my Monster Manual and found the Lich's Special Quality called 'Immunities' . This gives immunity to Cold, Electricity, Mind-Affecting stuff, and Polymorphing. I'd have to put on two epic rings to even get the first two bits of that. I turned again and found Vampire. Vampire's Fast Healing ability is extraordinarily powerful.
 

GnomeWorks

Adventurer
Rystil Arden said:
I know that I'm not the first, and that's why I didn't offer it until I was asked what I would do (and it is exactly what I would do as a GM).

Fair enough. :)

I still don't think that paying extra slots to gain a Special Quality is fair because I find a good number of Special Qualities to be extremely dangerous to allow, particularly Quickness, but there are others. To give you an example, I turned to a random page of my Monster Manual and found the Lich's Special Quality called 'Immunities' . This gives immunity to Cold, Electricity, Mind-Affecting stuff, and Polymorphing. I'd have to put on two epic rings to even get the first two bits of that. I turned again and found Vampire. Vampire's Fast Healing ability is extraordinarily powerful.

But did you check what sort of abilities those are?

The vampire's fast healing is an (Ex) ability, meaning that the learner cannot learn it. The lich's immunities is also (Ex).

Keep in mind that a good number of SQ abilities are (Ex), and the learner can only learn (Su) and non-grouped (Sp) abilities.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
But did you check what sort of abilities those are?

The vampire's fast healing is an (Ex) ability, meaning that the learner cannot learn it. The lich's immunities is also (Ex).

Oops! That's what I get for picking a random ability :eek:
 

GnomeWorks

Adventurer
Rystil Arden said:
Oops! That's what I get for picking a random ability :eek:

It happens. :)

However, with that in mind, do you still think that increasing the number of talent slots needed to use an SQ ability to two or three is not enough? It makes quickness less broken, as well as all the DR-granting abilities (and some, like the lich's, are pretty extreme - DR 15/magic and bludgeoning, which is much more exacting in its requirements than just /magic).
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
The lich's DR isn't even the worst one I'm worried about. It's the monsters that have DR that requires Good to defeat that is the problem, as that's basically DR/- for a PC :confused: Frankly, even at the cost of two talents or three, I would not allow almost any of the Su SQs that I see (and looking through the book, I don't see many--Quickness, which is just plain broken, DR, which can go wrong fast, the Nymph's extraordinarily powerful Unearthly Grace ability, etc).
 

GnomeWorks

Adventurer
Keep in mind, though, the limiting factors of the learner.

First off, the learner's talents are limited by a wide variety of things.

She is limited by her level, because the effective spell level of her talents is based on that. That modifies saving throw DCs for anything vaguely offensive. It also means that most of her talents are easy to dispel by a caster of equal level, since they are going to be probably 2-3 levels lower than what she would be throwing if she were a wizard or sorcerer of equivalent level. In addition, any ability that is normally always active for a creature lasts for 1 round/level for the learner - and there is no way to extend that, with the removal of metamagic feats.

She is limited by her abilities. A learner suffers from MAD of three ability scores, modifying her saving throw DCs, her talent slots, and her talents known.

She is limited by how many talent slots she has in a day; at 10th, she will probably have 16-18 talent slots available. If the talent slot costs of SQ abilities are increased to two, that means she can use - at most! - 8-9 of them in one day. That's only 80-90 rounds of mostly defensive abilities. If she uses any other ability, those numbers are cut drastically. Sure, she can get DR 15/magic and bludgeoning for 10 rounds, but then she's reducing what else she can be doing. She is far more limited than a sorcerer in her available power.

She is limited in what she knows, period. Yes, using that as a balance argument is somewhat shaky ground. However, a learner can only know so many talents, and she will probably want a decent mix of abilities. How many DR abilities will a learner bother to learn? Will she take the DR 15/magic and bludgeoning, or the DR 10/good? They could choose to take both, but then that's one less offensive or other miscellaneous ability they could gain. And while they can swap out abilities, if they do, that ability is gone and must be relearned manually, which can take quite a bit of effort.

And any party with a cleric has access to a spell which enables them to overcome DR -/good. Align Weapon doesn't require you to choose what alignment you're going to use it for when you prepare it. And even then, it would be no more annoying than encountering an enemy for whom you do not posess an item of the appropriate type.

The learner has many possibilities at her disposal, yes. But her talents all have very short durations, they are all relatively low-level (and therefore easier to dispel at higher levels), and she has a very small power base and list of talents known.

Sure, Unearthly Grace is nice, but what about this spell? At 11th level - a learner would probably be at her 4th or 5th level in learner, tops, at that point - a wizard or sorcerer has access to a very nice combat spell. And the wizard doesn't have to hop through a bunch of hoops to use it, either - and when the wizard first gets it, it will always last longer than the learner's Unearthly Grace, no matter what level.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
And any party with a cleric has access to a spell which enables them to overcome DR -/good. Align Weapon doesn't require you to choose what alignment you're going to use it for when you prepare it. And even then, it would be no more annoying than encountering an enemy for whom you do not posess an item of the appropriate type.

Check the Align Weapon description--Evil clerics cannot align the weapon as Good ;) Of course, a Learner can also wind up with something crazy like DR 15/epic, which is even worse.

Sure, Unearthly Grace is nice, but what about this spell? At 11th level - a learner would probably be at her 4th or 5th level in learner, tops, at that point - a wizard or sorcerer has access to a very nice combat spell. And the wizard doesn't have to hop through a bunch of hoops to use it, either - and when the wizard first gets it, it will always last longer than the learner's Unearthly Grace, no matter what level.

Unearthly Grace is much better than Transformation. Losing all spellcasting ability is a *big* hoop.



So my Learner has Quickness, DR Something Crazy, Unearthly Grace, and some kind of crazy attack spell (let's pick Dragon Breath). With the crazy DR, AC, and Saves, you're not going to kill him soon. Then he unloads Dragon Breaths. He doesn't care at all if they save, unless the monster happens to have Evasion.

Round 1: Quickness, DR (14 left)
Round 2: Unearthly Grace, Dragon Breath (11 left)
Round 3 and beyond: Dragon Breath, Dragon Breath (9 left)
 

GnomeWorks

Adventurer
Rystil Arden said:
So my Learner has Quickness, DR Something Crazy, Unearthly Grace, and some kind of crazy attack spell (let's pick Dragon Breath). With the crazy DR, AC, and Saves, you're not going to kill him soon. Then he unloads Dragon Breaths. He doesn't care at all if they save, unless the monster happens to have Evasion.

Well, to kill this particular example...

SRD
If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds.

However, perhaps one possible fix (since you could easily replace the breath weapon in your example with any other attack talent), would be to make all talents at least a full-round action. Quickness would not be nearly as broken in that instance, and could be rationalized as emulation taking longer than the real thing (ie, a dragon can breathe because thats what they're built to do, but a learner emulating that ability has to give it a little more effort).
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
However, perhaps one possible fix (since you could easily replace the breath weapon in your example with any other attack talent), would be to make all talents at least a full-round action. Quickness would not be nearly as broken in that instance, and could be rationalized as emulation taking longer than the real thing (ie, a dragon can breathe because thats what they're built to do, but a learner emulating that ability has to give it a little more effort).

That's not really a fix because it assumes that the devastating ability has to come from the Learner class. What if my Wizard takes 1 level of this class to get Quickness twice per day, then didn't learn anything else and promptly used Quickness to cast her Wizard spells?
 

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