Superhero RPG

[Jim Hague]

QFT

Some HERO system powers can be really complicated.

What if I have a multipower attack that is an inobvious accessable focus, but is ussable only at night, but gets through NND, and has charges?

That is several cases of having to multiply by 1.2 or 1.3 then divide by 5 multiply it all by 2 and then multiply by .6 and then by 1.5... Ridiculous. [and yes, I know those are not the exact things you mulitply or divide by, so don't come squealing that I don't know what I'm talking about]. The numbers are not the issue-- it is the number of steps involved in figuring out just 1 power.

In BASH! I made this real easy-- each power can have only 1 limitation that you will get any discount on. I just shave the cost down by 1, to a minimum of 1. Meaning if you have a 1 point power, you probably WON'T take a limitation on it. Oh well, certainly is simplier than the mess presented above.

It's not even that the math is complex on the front-end - in play, it's all figured out. But at character generation? Enough +1/-1, or special cases such as in MnM wheh a -1 Flaw on a 1-point power gets you 2 Ranks for a point? Or remembering that the Alternate Power Feat doesn't count towards an Array's pooled cost?

It's not nightmarish, but for someone like me, who's discalculic, it gets rough. I loves me some MnM - it's one of my favorite systems, enough that I write material for it - but having that spreadsheet handy to speed things along and check mistakes is useful. Even in more freefom systems, complex builds can run into this issue, y'know?

 

[WayneLigon]

Adding more books to the pool of system materials makes the game EASIER? You know there is something foul in denmark when this is the way it works.

Most supplements for other games do this.

The Champions books mentioned don't add rules. They show you how to use the existing rules to achieve what you want. They are very, very optional indeed. They're there for two reasons.

Speed: if you need a quick weather controller NPC and don't have one, then you can pick out the weather control power framework, think up some quick stats to support it and you're good to go in a few seconds with a serviceable set of NPC stats. Same with gadgets and gear; since everything is built from the ground up in Champions, these give you pre-done gadgets you can just pay the point cost for and you're ready.

People who are new to the game: Champions can be a very daunting game at first, as is any toolbox game. Even though there are tons of examples in the main rule book, some people just need more help. The books mentioned take virtually every normally seen superpower and do several series of stats using the basic rules to show you how air control might differenciate from magnetic control even though they use the same basic powers. Basically, I think it's an attempt to counter the idea in a lot of people's heads that Champions is a vastly complex system; it's not. It's a simple system with a great many ways to do things. But some people need a lot more handholding than others do. Any product that makes things easier for people is probably a good thing.

At least in D&D, adding more books is intended to make the game harder.

Not harder, but to add more options, I can't think of any 3E book that's actually made the core game more difficult to play save perhaps Complete Warrior, which I think was the book that introcuded the other action types that are now common. Adding a significant rules change like that could be said to make the game harder, but certainly not by much.

 

[SteveC]

QFT

Some HERO system powers can be really complicated.

What if I have a multipower attack that is an inobvious accessable focus, but is ussable only at night, but gets through NND, and has charges?

That is several cases of having to multiply by 1.2 or 1.3 then divide by 5 multiply it all by 2 and then multiply by .6 and then by 1.5... Ridiculous. [and yes, I know those are not the exact things you mulitply or divide by, so don't come squealing that I don't know what I'm talking about]. The numbers are not the issue-- it is the number of steps involved in figuring out just 1 power.

In BASH! I made this real easy-- each power can have only 1 limitation that you will get any discount on. I just shave the cost down by 1, to a minimum of 1. Meaning if you have a 1 point power, you probably WON'T take a limitation on it. Oh well, certainly is simplier than the mess presented above.

All I can tell you about this is that you're wrong in your math.

HERO works this way. Take the base points for your attack, multiply it by 1+the advantages you add to it, then divide by 1+the limitations. That's it. If you look at the Ultimate Powers book, M&M works in an almost entirely similar manner.

In your example above, let's say you have a 10d6 attack. Here's all of the math involved.

Each D6 of energy blast costs you 5 points, so having 10d6 costs 50 points.

Now, your attack is a "no normal defense," which is a +1 advantage. You don't have any other advantages on it, so you multiply that base cost by 2 (1+1) to get 100. That's the attack's active points.

Next, you apply the limitations: the Inobvious Accessable Focus is a 1/2 limitation, we'll call "only at night" a 1/2 limitation, and then give you, 9 charges which is another 1/2 limitation. To figure out your total cost you divide that 100 points by (1+ 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2.5) to end up with 40 points (100/2.5 = 40). You're now done. Was that simple? Not really, but was it mind shattering math that will leave you gibbering in a corner? Not really either. Further, HERO comes with a handy chart that you can use to figure out those costs for you.

The M&M process is very similar, but actually a little more complicated because you don't have an advantage like "no normal defense", and you would build the power first, and then take the device power and put you weapon inside it.

Honestly, I'd say that both methods are fairly similar, and both can be used to get the powers you want in the manner you want them. If you don't need/want that in your game, you should be looking at a simpler system, like the one you suggest. Some people do want that flexibility, however, and HERO/M&M are going to be the games for them.

--Steve

 

[Mallus]

The System is Basic Action Super Heroes, aka BASH! I mentioned it before in an earlier post, but here is a link to the website to check it out: BASHRPG.COM

Thanks. I'll check it out. It looks... immediately comprehensible, and I like that.

He also has the advantage: Sidekick for his "Buff tag-team partner" unless he is a fellow hero on the team.

His usual passenger is the flight-incapable member of his 'team', Chris, the Greek-themed brick, also known as Epic. He's the master of the 'grapple that dare not speak it's name". Which isn't really surprising, come to think of it.

Does this character have any established enemies, btw?

The Villainos Unidos, a team of luchadores living in Mexico City made up of ex-supervillains who are managed by Joseirus's biological father. They include Zap-itista, the Supracabra, and El Diablo Robotico (naturally).

Also, Juanubis, another member of the ancient Meso-Egyptian pantheon.

Btw, This character is quite hillarious.

Thanks. He's a blast to play.

Our Fanzine, BAM! Basic Action Magazine is starting a collumn featuring a "Character Spotlight" which will include people's homemade super-heroes and villains. I think that Joseirus would be a fun character to feature for this, if you are open to it.

Sure. Joseirus has already appeared in a .pdf by one of the guys over at atomicthinktank.com. Here's the link: http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=20885

Attached is a .doc w/a picture of Joseirus in his chariot (below a bust of Juanubis) done for the .pdf.

 

[pawsplay]

What if I have a multipower attack that is an inobvious accessable focus, but is ussable only at night, but gets through NND, and has charges?

Then you're doing something most games can't do at all, or don't do very elegantly.

You still have the option of not doing that. You can stick with the 8d6 Energy Blast.

But if you want the nocturnal lovey blanket of strangling, you can have the nocturnal lovey blanket of strangling.

 

[pawsplay]

Adding more books to the pool of system materials makes the game EASIER? You know there is something foul in denmark when this is the way it works. At least in D&D, adding more books is intended to make the game harder.

Absolutely sinister. Even worse than modules, or character spreadsheets.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

Next, you apply the limitations: the Inobvious Accessable Focus is a 1/2 limitation, we'll call "only at night" a 1/2 limitation, and then give you, 9 charges which is another 1/2 limitation. To figure out your total cost you divide that 100 points by (1+ 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2.5) to end up with 40 points (100/2.5 = 40). You're now done. Was that simple? Not really, but was it mind shattering math that will leave you gibbering in a corner? Not really either. Further, HERO comes with a handy chart that you can use to figure out those costs for you.

The M&M process is very similar, but actually a little more complicated because you don't have an advantage like "no normal defense", and you would build the power first, and then take the device power and put you weapon inside it.

See, I find the M&M way to build powers much easier. To build a similar power in M&M, you'd start with the Blast power, which costs 2 pts per rank. Let's call it Blast 10 for 20 pts.

For every additional ability you add to the power, add +1 pt per rank. In this case, there is no 'No Normal Defense' rule in M&M, but something similar might be to change it to require a Fortitude Save instead of regular defenses, which would be a +1 per rank. Now, your power costs 3 pts per rank, or 30 points.

For every limitation that your power has, subtract -1 per rank. 'Only at night' is a -1. 'Limited Uses' is a -1 (this one is arguable, and you'd need to run it by your GM). That brings you down to 1 pt per rank, or a total of 10 pts.

I forget exactly how making it a gadget works, but IIRC, it works like this: for every 4 points you put in the Device power, you can spend 5 points to give it powers, for a savings of 20%. So in this case, you'd put in 8 character points to get 10 points worth of powers, which leaves you with:

Device 8 (Blast 10, Extra: Alternate Save: Fortitude; Limits: Only at Night, Limited number of uses)
Total cost: 8 points.

-----

I find M&M to be extremely easy to use, especially after having played Champions for years. I've been running a World War 2 era superhero campaign using M&M, and we've played about 10 sessions... in that time, I haven't had to write up a single villian or mook. Because of the way the system works, as long as I know what their level would be in relationship to the PCs, and a list in mind of what their powers should be, I'm good to go. That kind of freedom is next to impossible using Champions.

Plus, M&M has some extra role-playing features that add a lot to the game. With very little effort in terms of game balance and power building, a PC can add a power stunt to their standard powers to represent a one-time usage of their abilities. You'd have to do a lot of math in Champions to get the same thing worked out.

 

[Malacoda]

I am adding my voice to the chorus recommending M&M2e. And, I will make it more than a "Me too!" post with a reason...

I found M&M2e very easy to wing. Once you understand what Power Level means in terms of NPCs, and you have a basic understanding of how many powers work, it is really easy to make stuff up on the fly, including superpowered characters, as long as they are not complicated or have complicated powers.

In my initial M&M2e mini-campaign, I fully statted out only a small portion of the NPCs. I made the rest up as I went long.

 

[SteveC]

I find M&M to be extremely easy to use, especially after having played Champions for years. I've been running a World War 2 era superhero campaign using M&M, and we've played about 10 sessions... in that time, I haven't had to write up a single villian or mook. Because of the way the system works, as long as I know what their level would be in relationship to the PCs, and a list in mind of what their powers should be, I'm good to go. That kind of freedom is next to impossible using Champions.

Plus, M&M has some extra role-playing features that add a lot to the game. With very little effort in terms of game balance and power building, a PC can add a power stunt to their standard powers to represent a one-time usage of their abilities. You'd have to do a lot of math in Champions to get the same thing worked out.

You make some good points. On the issue of creating the power, (which I snipped) you're basically doing the same thing with M&M as with Champs, you just have smaller numbers, and in the case of the gadget, a pretty simple extra step. The idea I was trying to get across is that the systems are very similar. If you take a look in the Ultimate Powers book, there is an equation for how to build powers that is exactly the same as the HERO system rules, M&M just doesn't use any fractions.

As far as the game being easier to run in play, I'll just say that the way you're talking about running M&M was the way that I ran HERO for years. I used to run and play in several HERO games a week (ah, college) and after a while I would generate my villains on the fly. It's just something that comes with the familiarity with the system. That may seem like blasphemy to some, but I not only did that, but also didn't write up cell phones, flashlights or similar objects either .

As far as power stunting, I made some power stunting rules many years ago that ALMOST became canon (you're talking to an almost published HERO author) but during the Cybergames fiasco things just didn't work out, it's a shame. I made use of the power use skill and had you make a check based on it in comparison to the effect that you were trying to create. By the book, however, I'll agree with you that M&M has some wicked cool stunt rules. I'll have to see if I can dig up my old rules someday and post them.

 

[jmucchiello]

For every additional ability you add to the power, add +1 pt per rank.

The difference is in precision. Not all additional abilities are truly equal are they? HERO allows for some advantages to be better than other advantages. Thus you can have the No Normal Defense advantage for +1 and you can have the Difficult to Dispel advantage for +1/4. These advantages do not have the same weight (nor come up as frequently during play) so they should not increase the cost equally. Same goes for disadvantages.

Fuzion took the HERO numbers and divided by 5 (essentially) and it then had adders and limiters that would use a similar equation as M&M. But Fuzion wasn't as complete as HERO.