Trip and Whirlwind Attack

[Tarangil]

I'm needing to know if there is any errata or clarification on the use of the Improved trip and Whirlwind Attack:

The trip rules say that you can make a trip attack in place of a normal attack, and the whirlwind rules says that you can make a normal attack on every adjacent foe... will that mean one can trip in a whirlwind?

 

[Zurai]

Yes, you can substitute trip attacks for your attacks with the Whirlwind Attack feat. Note, however, that you cannot make the extra attacks granted by Improved Trip, because Whirlwind Attack specifically prevents any additional attacks in that round.

 

[Tarangil]

Good to know. Thanks man.

When you go by: Prevents additional attacks, do AOO's fall into that catagory?

 

[Zurai]

No, the Whirlwind Attack feat only prevents extra attacks from feats, spells, or abilities, as it says in its text. AoOs aren't from any of those three things.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, you can substitute trip attacks for your attacks with the Whirlwind Attack feat. Note, however, that you cannot make the extra attacks granted by Improved Trip, because Whirlwind Attack specifically prevents any additional attacks in that round.

Arguably, the Improved Trip attack is not an extra attack; it's a melee attack as if you had not used the original attack to trip. If you hadn't used the original attack to trip, Whirlwind Attack would not prevent you making a melee attack, so it should not prevent the attack from Improved Trip.

-Hyp.

 

[s-dub]

Arguably, the Improved Trip attack is not an extra attack; it's a melee attack as if you had not used the original attack to trip. If you hadn't used the original attack to trip, Whirlwind Attack would not prevent you making a melee attack, so it should not prevent the attack from Improved Trip.

-Hyp.

I agree with your reading of the Improved Trip feat.

Howver, I'm not so sure about whirlwind:

From the SRD(I hope they didn't paraphrase something incorrectly)

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Question 1. Does the melee attack clause rule out trip attacks?
Question 2. Does the improved trip feat grat bonus or extra attacks?

 

[RigaMortus2]

I agree with your reading of the Improved Trip feat.

Howver, I'm not so sure about whirlwind:

From the SRD(I hope they didn't paraphrase something incorrectly)

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Is the extra attack from Improved Trip a "regular" attack? If not, they you don't have to give it up...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is the extra attack from Improved Trip a "regular" attack? If not, they you don't have to give it up...

It's not the 'give up your regular attacks' clause, it's the 'forfeit extra attacks from feats' clause that causes the problem... but only if one considers the Improved Trip attack to be an extra attack. As written, it isn't an extra attack; it's an attack as if you hadn't used the original attack to trip.

If it were an extra attack, you would forfeit it when using Whirlwind Attack.

Question 1. Does the melee attack clause rule out trip attacks?
Question 2. Does the improved trip feat grat bonus or extra attacks?

You can substitute a trip attack for a melee attack, so it's fine within a Whirlwind Attack.

Regarding extra attacks: let's say you can normally make three attacks in a round. You hit them once, hit them a second time, trip them, and use Improved Trip to hit them a third time.

How many attacks are there?

Number 1: a normal melee attack.
Number 2: a normal melee attack.
Number 3: a trip.
Number 4... no, hang on, the next attack is made as if you hadn't used the attack to trip, so it's still Number 3.

Since it's as if you only made three attacks, it's as if there were no extra attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[ScipioX]

Arguably, the Improved Trip attack is not an extra attack; it's a melee attack as if you had not used the original attack to trip. If you hadn't used the original attack to trip, Whirlwind Attack would not prevent you making a melee attack, so it should not prevent the attack from Improved Trip.

Only arguable if you don't read the FAQ, which clarifies that the 'as if you hadn't made an attack' language is only there to indicate what BAB the followup attack uses.

 

[Legildur]

Only arguable if you don't read the FAQ, which clarifies that the 'as if you hadn't made an attack' language is only there to indicate what BAB the followup attack uses.

Such a shame that the FAQ often has rulings that contradict the rules then.....

I tend to lean towards the FAQ answer, but the language used for Improved Trip (as Hyp quotes) leaves a LOT of room for the alternate view.