What Hill Will You Die On?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Using a purpose-built tool will always yield better results than misusing a tool built for a different purpose. Just because you can use a screwdriver as a makeshift hammer doesn't mean the screwdriver is a hammer. The hammer will always be better at hammering things than the screwdriver.

D&D 5E is a purpose-built tool for monster fighting. Just because you can use it to badly produce vaguely story-like things does not make it a storytelling game. Just because you can use it to try to simulate the life of your character doesn't make it a life sim. Tacking on rules that generate better story-like things from play and simulate life better doesn't change what the game was designed to do, i.e. fight monsters.
Oh hey that’s one of my hills too!

Just…not in the same direction.

A game is a toolset, not a tool. 5e is worse at some things because it leaves space open for adding tools from other toolkits, and generally those tools will work.

Most people who are playing D&D aren’t trying to play one thing, they’re trying to play the full story of a group of people. It’s ridiculous to change games to tell a heist story with the same characters you’ve been playing a high stakes save the world adventure game with, for that one heist adventure, and then go back to the adventure game. No, the reasonable thing to do is to add heist story tools to the adventure game, and tell a heist adventure story.


Also, 5e isn’t a game about fighting monsters, it’s an OC Generating Save The World Adventure game.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
I will stand with you on both those hills :D

I have a kinda-sorta corollary to the 2nd one. Rules-heavy or crunchy rules do not have to:
  • Have a huge page count explaining every possibility and nuance
  • Be more complex than "simpler" rules

I suspect it depends on what "simple" and "complex" mean to the viewer. I'm of the opinion that most exception-based designs are intrinsically bloated, often more, in practice, to more complex (in having more moving parts) games that aren't, but some people are willing to act like (as an example) long spell lists aren't there if the combat rules are straightforward.
 

  • The rules significantly influence how people play the game, what choices they make about their characters, abilities, equipment, and the particularly profoundly control the general vibe of the game.
This is the one thing, where I would be willing to heavily fortify that hill, so that we can at least put up a good fight in case it becomes necessary.
I think someone here at ENWorld put it nicely: System matters! Probably not as much as Ron Edwards would like, but certainly more than DMs running everything with D&D5 think.

Also there's a few smaller hills which I would at least entrust to competent hirelings:
  • TTRPGs would benefit a lot from a shared vocabulary to talk about game design and game experiences (yes, the Forge failed to establish this, but I see it more as a matter of approach than validity of goal)
  • D&D would be a better game if it allowed itself to branch out a bit more (probably with a secondary line)
  • The d20 was a mistake, we should roll 2d6 just as Dave intended (ok, maybe this hill goes to a slightly less competent retainer 🙃 )
 



RareBreed

Adventurer
I suspect it depends on what "simple" and "complex" mean to the viewer. I'm of the opinion that most exception-based designs are intrinsically bloated, often more, in practice, to more complex (in having more moving parts) games that aren't, but some people are willing to act like (as an example) long spell lists aren't there if the combat rules are straightforward.
I was wondering if someone would ask what I consider complex to be :) The "having more moving parts" is related to complexity in its original meaning. Having more moving parts is ok, as long as they are understandable in isolation and work together.

Etymologically speaking, simple derived from the latin simplex, which literally means "one fold" or one "strand". Compare this to complex which can mean "many folds". While we use complex and complicated as synonyms, etymologically speaking, they have different meanings and origins.

Something that is complex has many interconnected parts or folds (like a manifold). This is what tends to make complex things complicated, due to the intertwining of parts and folding into and among themselves. On the other hand, something that is simple only has one strand or fold, so its easier to follow. "Realistic" or "Crunch heavy" games don't necessarily have to be complex (or complicated).

A good example of this is having lots of attributes to describe a character versus fewer. As an extreme example, imagine a game just has 3 attributes, Mind, Body and Spirit. This means that a character is equally strong, agile, hardy, etc. But it's simple right? Better than having to keep track of say Power, Endurance, Dexterity, Agility, etc etc. But does it make sense that a character is equally good at all physical attributes? Of course not. So now, to make up for this "simplicity", you actually introduce complexity by having another set of rules like Advantages and Disadvantages. So now, I have to purchase an Advantage to indicate that a character's Agility is higher than the Body would indicate.
 


DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
I'd like to see some statistics backing this up. I've seen articles (such as this one) that shows that body armor does save lives.

Body armor saves lives, period. I'm not arguing that modern kevlar and/or ceramic polymer body armors don't save lives... I'm arguing that late period plate-over-chain-over-quilt is still viable protection against modern weaponry. It's no longer relevant for logistical and economic factors, but it's still effective. Dump a mag of 7.62 into the Mountain and he might wish he was dead, but he probably won't be.

Probably done fighting for the day, but the way D&D handles incapacitation and injuries is unrealistic in a way I am 100% here for and is in no way relevant to this thread.
 

RareBreed

Adventurer
Body armor saves lives, period. I'm not arguing that modern kevlar and/or ceramic polymer body armors don't save lives... I'm arguing that late period plate-over-chain-over-quilt is still viable protection against modern weaponry. It's no longer relevant for logistical and economic factors, but it's still effective. Dump a mag of 7.62 into the Mountain and he might wish he was dead, but he probably won't be.

Probably done fighting for the day, but the way D&D handles incapacitation and injuries is unrealistic in a way I am 100% here for and is in no way relevant to this thread.
I'd agree with that. The quilt under medieval period armor should help against spalling and fragmentation. There are supposedly pros and cons for ceramic vs modern steel plates and that's one of the pros of ceramic plates. It's actually pretty amazing what modern steel plates can stop.
 

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