D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[tetrasodium]

Then see how likely your fellow party members are to protect you from having your concentration broken, once they realize you care only about what you can do.

Iow: "sure would be a shame if something happened to you after suggesting I learn to pace my resource burn at a rate other than NOVASTRIKE Bob"

And as always, "no one else needs rest" means "I don't need rest".

If that's the metric you live by, then you might as well kick any player who posits the idea of playing a non-caster at Session 0.

(Never mind that said metric applies only to an extremely narrow scenario you invented solely to create said metric, which won't mean anything to 99% of players and campaigns...)

You are literally voicing the kinds of social contract and bad design backed clubs used to bludgeon the other players into just laying down in acceptance of abusively stopping for a short rest every fight or two in service of endless nova.

Or non-caster players know the game and realize what can be gained and lost during short rest.

Or just house rule short rests at 1 min and everyone is happy.

IME the monk warlock and generally fighter will coldly point out that they are completely tapped out and must rest because they have zero slots/ki/"oh yea my action sure got used too". After doing that they will either make every effort atrefusijg to move or somehow sour the mood moping about how their class is designed to need those rests of anyone tries to resist them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also like…absolute optimization of every resource is boring and antithetical to what most people play for, whether that’s roleplaying/immersion/escapism, or beer and pretzel fun with buds, or cooperative improvised storytelling. There is really only a couple playstyles that even benefit from that sort of thinking, beyond the 101 level stuff, like player skill dungeon crawling and tactical skirmish combat focused play.

We know that most players don’t optimize. Hell, the Ranger has trash satisfaction and is still also very popular in terms of being played, exactly because its story elements are excellent (thus popularity) and its mechanical execution sucks (thus dissatisfaction). The most popular class build is champion fighter, including amongst ddb users with all options available to them.

So even if we somehow conclude that the remaining juice of a 4th level spell after the fight the 4th level spell was cast in is worth more than 7 instances of monk subclass ability use, or FoB, of SoTW, etc.*, so what? If you can’t let your spell end after one fight to bring a teammate up basically to full power…that’s bad player behavior.

I’m all for making every class have strong reasons to take at least 1 short rest, but let’s not pretend that a 4th level spell that should have already done it’s work before a rest is even being discussed is equal in importance to a PC having all their juice back.
If a spell last 1 hour, you either cast it knowing you might not get more than 1 fight with it up, or you wait to cast it until you know a short rest isn’t on the immediate horizon.

When I play a caster and I am casting Armor of Agythis or whatever, I think about those and I decide whether to cast it based on those factors.


* I’ve stopped a dragon getting away as a monk with that, open hand, flurry of blows, and Sentinel feat. Doesn’t matter a bit the rogue/Hexblade then did 100 damage to get the kill shot. I set up the shot and enabled the fight to continue rather than the dragon escaping to her lair, for like 4 ki over 2 rounds.

 

[mellored]

We know that most players don’t optimize

also, many people who optimize don't necessarily bring that build to the table. Or if they do, they often help everyone else get to the same level, even the DM.

IME the main problem players is usually "copymizers". People who copy from a guide without understanding, and as often as not, misunderstanding the rules. Who just want to be more powerful than anyone else.

 

[tetrasodium]

When a player wants to take a short rest every fight or two no spell or ability lasting longer than a single encounter remains viable unless it pushes into 24hr or multiple day durations. The fault is in the player expecting to NOVA their way through fights at maximum burn before demanding a not in the duration of spells & abilities that last a time frame like one hour. The only exception to that are spells and abilities cast by abhorrent design failures present with short rest nova classes who don't care about losing the spell or ability they expect to recover with the rest.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

also, many people who optimize don't necessarily bring that build to the table. Or if they do, they often help everyone else get to the same level, even the DM.

IME the main problem players is usually "copymizers". People who copy from a guide without understanding, and as often as not, misunderstanding the rules. Who just want to be more powerful than anyone else.

Oof yeah. Agreed

 

[Horwath]

When a player wants to take a short rest every fight or two no spell or ability lasting longer than a single encounter remains viable unless it pushes into 24hr or multiple day durations. The fault is in the player expecting to NOVA their way through fights at maximum burn before demanding a not in the duration of spells & abilities that last a time frame like one hour. The only exception to that are spells and abilities cast by abhorrent design failures present with short rest nova classes who don't care about losing the spell or ability they expect to recover with the rest.

There is several solutions to this problem:


1. Delete Short rests. Have everyone and everything recharge on Long rest.
Add to Dodge action: you can spend 1 HD to heal yourself. 2 HD at 5th level, 3 HD at 11th level, 4 HD at 17th level.

2. Make short rests 1-5 min long. 1 Min is enough to remove strongest combat spells that last 1 min.
Here also remove 10min duration spells and effects.
10min is too long for single combat and most of the time too short for any exploration/roleplay encounter.
reduce power and make it 1hr or 12hrs long, or increase power for 1 min duration(probably with Conc)

3. Increase duration of all spells that have Conc and duration of 10 min and longer to 12hrs(so that sorcerers can benefit from extended metamagic fully). Conc tag on those spells will prevent them from stacking and there is not much difference in invisibility lasting 1hr or 12hrs. It still uses Conc, it still breaks on 1st hostile action.

4. Use spell points instead of slots, regain 1/3rd(round up) of spell points on Short rest(wizards and their arcane recharge boost this to 1/2 points). And since in spell point variant you can only create 1 spell slot of levels 6,7,8 and 9, there is no worry about high level wizard spamming strongest spells every short rest.
Sorcerers just add their sorcery points into single spell point pool.

 

[tetrasodium]

There is several solutions to this problem:


1. Delete Short rests. Have everyone and everything recharge on Long rest.
Add to Dodge action: you can spend 1 HD to heal yourself. 2 HD at 5th level, 3 HD at 11th level, 4 HD at 17th level.

2. Make short rests 1-5 min long. 1 Min is enough to remove strongest combat spells that last 1 min.
Here also remove 10min duration spells and effects.
10min is too long for single combat and most of the time too short for any exploration/roleplay encounter.
reduce power and make it 1hr or 12hrs long, or increase power for 1 min duration(probably with Conc)

3. Increase duration of all spells that have Conc and duration of 10 min and longer to 12hrs(so that sorcerers can benefit from extended metamagic fully). Conc tag on those spells will prevent them from stacking and there is not much difference in invisibility lasting 1hr or 12hrs. It still uses Conc, it still breaks on 1st hostile action.

4. Use spell points instead of slots, regain 1/3rd(round up) of spell points on Short rest(wizards and their arcane recharge boost this to 1/2 points). And since in spell point variant you can only create 1 spell slot of levels 6,7,8 and 9, there is no worry about high level wizard spamming strongest spells every short rest.
Sorcerers just add their sorcery points into single spell point pool.

Most of that amounts to reshaping the entire game in order to force everything else back into sn ADEU shaped mold in order to avoid admitting that you can't simply bolt on a pseudo ADEU pair of classes that themselves are built to look more attrition based then ADEU without causing a lot of problems.

The rest of ores that simply making rests even easier to take breaks things even more because the pseudo ADEU classes are not built with ADEU level resources or powers

 

[Horwath]

Most of that amounts to reshaping the entire game in order to force everything else back into sn ADEU shaped mold in order to avoid admitting that you can't simply bolt on a pseudo ADEU pair of classes that themselves are built to look more attrition based then ADEU without causing a lot of problems.

The rest of ores that simply making rests even easier to take breaks things even more because the pseudo ADEU classes are not built with ADEU level resources or powers

Yeah,
problem with 5E is that is some hybrid of 3.5 and little 4E, without 4E rest and power recharge.

Short rest mechanic is the one of the worst 5E implementations.

They need to make all classes need it in some way, and have long duration Cons spell last longer than short rest.

 

[strawbellebelle]

There is several solutions to this problem:


1. Delete Short rests. Have everyone and everything recharge on Long rest.
Add to Dodge action: you can spend 1 HD to heal yourself. 2 HD at 5th level, 3 HD at 11th level, 4 HD at 17th level.

2. Make short rests 1-5 min long. 1 Min is enough to remove strongest combat spells that last 1 min.
Here also remove 10min duration spells and effects.
10min is too long for single combat and most of the time too short for any exploration/roleplay encounter.
reduce power and make it 1hr or 12hrs long, or increase power for 1 min duration(probably with Conc)

3. Increase duration of all spells that have Conc and duration of 10 min and longer to 12hrs(so that sorcerers can benefit from extended metamagic fully). Conc tag on those spells will prevent them from stacking and there is not much difference in invisibility lasting 1hr or 12hrs. It still uses Conc, it still breaks on 1st hostile action.

4. Use spell points instead of slots, regain 1/3rd(round up) of spell points on Short rest(wizards and their arcane recharge boost this to 1/2 points). And since in spell point variant you can only create 1 spell slot of levels 6,7,8 and 9, there is no worry about high level wizard spamming strongest spells every short rest.
Sorcerers just add their sorcery points into single spell point pool.

There are plenty of solutions, if you care about more people than just casters, as every one of these "solutions" revolves around.

All because in a fantasy world with a myriad of races, enchanted items, and magics of many flavours, people can't imagine the idea of adventurers taking an hour to rest.

 

[Horwath]

There are plenty of solutions, if you care about more people than just casters, as every one of these "solutions" revolves around.

OFC the solution is around casters, as casters more or less gain nothing on short rest.
Sure there are suggestions now for 2024, but for 2014 is slim pickings.

a spell that last 1hr should last several combats and maybe some exploration/roleplay utility.
Not one combat and let it fizzle while we twiddle our thumbs for an hour waiting for monk to get his 3 and a half ki points back.

Now, if whole party is missing HPs and multiple resources, then yes, losing one spell slot is worth getting those resources back.

It's all in what you get vs. what you lose.

All because in a fantasy world with a myriad of races, enchanted items, and magics of many flavours, people can't imagine the idea of adventurers taking an hour to rest.

As stated, there are benefits and there are costs of rest, and every rest needs to be calculated if it's worth taking it.