Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier

So having read the quite excellent Ampersand article concerning rogues (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a), I was particularly interested in the Healing Surges. First off, hit points appear to have a one time influence from Constitution (12 + Constitution score at 1st level, then 5 hit points per level). There is no mention of Constitution in the per level hit points gained. Which then got me to thinking about healing surges.

My take on healing surges is that each time a Rogue gets a healing surge, they will regain 6 + Con modifier hit points. So when the Cleric critically hits the ancient dragon, and his party gets a healing surge, the Rogue will get 6 + Con modifier (i.e. (Level + CON - 10)/2). Perhaps each time a character uses Second Wind, they'll get a Healing Surge.

Another option is that the character gets 6 + Constitution modifier surges per 1) level, 2) day, 3) encounter, or 4) at will. I don't believe options 1 or 4 are all that likely.

As an aside, I'd personally like to see all per level concepts removed (here's looking at Action Points). The reason is that if we remove the per level concept, I, the DM, can determine the speed of level progression.

6 + Con mod hit points of healing would be piss-poor at high levels. Sure, they appear to have scaled hit points back, but healing 10 hp (18 Con) is nothing when you have ~100 at 20th level.

I suspect it'll be 6 + Con mod times/day, with a limit on how often you can use it. Most likely it'll be 1/encounter as a default ("second wind").

hong said:

6 + Con mod hit points of healing would be piss-poor at high levels. Sure, they appear to have scaled hit points back, but healing 10 hp (18 Con) is nothing when you have ~100 at 20th level.

I suspect it'll be 6 + Con mod times/day, with a limit on how often you can use it. Most likely it'll be 1/encounter as a default ("second wind").

Click to expand...

I'm assuming that Con modifier is (CON - 10) / 2 + 1/2 character level. A 20th level rogue with a 14 Con would heal 18hp (and have 121 hit points). Which seems low based on the SWSE second wind, but if healing surges are triggered by something, then it might be reasonable.

FullTinCan said:

So having read the quite excellent Ampersand article concerning rogues (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a), I was particularly interested in the Healing Surges. First off, hit points appear to have a one time influence from Constitution (12 + Constitution score at 1st level, then 5 hit points per level). There is no mention of Constitution in the per level hit points gained. Which then got me to thinking about healing surges.

My take on healing surges is that each time a Rogue gets a healing surge, they will regain 6 + Con modifier hit points. So when the Cleric critically hits the ancient dragon, and his party gets a healing surge, the Rogue will get 6 + Con modifier (i.e. (Level + CON - 10)/2). Perhaps each time a character uses Second Wind, they'll get a Healing Surge.

Another option is that the character gets 6 + Constitution modifier surges per 1) level, 2) day, 3) encounter, or 4) at will. I don't believe options 1 or 4 are all that likely.

As an aside, I'd personally like to see all per level concepts removed (here's looking at Action Points). The reason is that if we remove the per level concept, I, the DM, can determine the speed of level progression.

Click to expand...

It's possible, but I don't think so. 6 + 1/2 level seems a little too low. Look at how much damage a character takes when he is exposed to a Pit Fiend - 15 points of fire damage each round, his "healing surge" can barely compensate that! And that's not taking into account additional damage sources. (like the 1d12+1d6+22 points of damage from two succesful attack, and the ongoing 15 points of poison damage per round)

I've posted my ideas before, but since it is actually on-topic here, here's my take:

I think it's really "uses per day". There was a post from one designers indicating that despite the existence of the healing surge, characters died or were at least dying. This leads to me to believe you need a "trigger" to be able to use a Healing Surge.

I assume these triggers are per encounter or per day powers (I guess the Star Wars Saga Second Wind mechanic is one option to get a Healing Surge that's open to everyone, no need for special powers. Treat Injury might be another one). They might even be At Will powers, like making a successful Heal check (which unfortunately costs the healing character a round worth of actions and is thus probably a desperate measure.)
So, probably like this:
- Cheap per Day Power: Second Wind - Spend one swift action to trigger a Healing Surge.
- Conditional per Encounter Power: Rejuvenating Strike - Make a melee attack as a standard action. If it succeeds, you/an ally trigger a Healing Surge.
- Costly At Will Power: Heal - Make a Heal check DC 15 as a standard action. If you succeed, you trigger one healing surge.

hong said:

6 + Con mod hit points of healing would be piss-poor at high levels. Sure, they appear to have scaled hit points back, but healing 10 hp (18 Con) is nothing when you have ~100 at 20th level.

I suspect it'll be 6 + Con mod times/day, with a limit on how often you can use it. Most likely it'll be 1/encounter as a default ("second wind").

Click to expand...

But in Pit Fiend article we saw that modifiers are scaled by level. So in the case you are talking about it will be 20 hp healing surge when you have ~100 hp. A healing of 1/5 total hps. Not bad I should say. Even if we count them more carefully (18 Con so 30 hp at 1st level + 95 total for 19 levels = 125 hps) it's still about 1/6 hp's total.
If those surges are used fairly often - it's a rather good healing I should say.

hong said:

I suspect it'll be 6 + Con mod times/day.

Click to expand...

Me too.

Not only because healing 6+CON modifier is irrelevant at higher levels, but also because it's written "Healing Surges" instead of "Healing Surge".

FullTinCan said:

First off, hit points appear to have a one time influence from Constitution (12 + Constitution score at 1st level, then 5 hit points per level). There is no mention of Constitution in the per level hit points gained.

Click to expand...

I feel this is not entirely true. Con is not a prime stat for the rogue - this may not be the case though, for some of the more martial characters. I can see them having 8 or 10 + Con hps / lvl.

The term Con "modifier" in 4e means that you have your Con bonus plus 1/2 level added in. IMO, anyway.

So Healing Surge of 6 + Con modifier means that a Rogue 10 with a Con of 16 can heal 14 (3 + 5 + 6) hp on a healing surge and would have total HP of 60 (12+3+ (9 x 5) = 60).

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. I'm guessing that healing surges are triggered by second wind, possibly by some magic items such as a potion of healing, perhaps by your own powers, and most likely by ally powers such as from the cleric, for example.

Dragonblade said:

The term Con "modifier" in 4e means that you have your Con bonus plus 1/2 level added in. IMO, anyway.

So Healing Surge of 6 + Con modifier means that a Rogue 10 with a Con of 16 can heal 14 (3 + 5 + 6) hp on a healing surge and would have total HP of 60 (12+3+ (9 x 5) = 60).

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. I'm guessing that healing surges are triggered by second wind, possibly by some magic items such as a potion of healing, perhaps by your own powers, and most likely by ally powers such as from the cleric, for example.

Click to expand...

To add to my original post, this method of healing also has a nice built in scaling effect so that a healing surge being triggered gives you a reasonable amount of hitpoints no matter what level you are.

Likewise, probably all cleric and warlord healing powers just triggers surges in their allies, possibly with an additional bonus for higher level powers.

This neatly solves the issue of having low level healing "spells" ceasing to be really relevant at high level. At 20th level in 3e for example, CLW is not a very effective spell. If in 4e a clerical healing spell just triggers a healing surge then the scaling issue is neatly solved. Likewise, the amount healed now depends on the ally receiving the heal and not the caster, so the scaling works across classes too. A defender would likely heal more than a Rogue from the same casting of a healing spell because their healing surge base might be higher than the rogue's base of 6.

I really love the elegance of this system.

hong said:

I suspect it'll be 6 + Con mod times/day, with a limit on how often you can use it. Most likely it'll be 1/encounter as a default ("second wind").

Click to expand...

Same here - not only because of your reasoning, but because it's

"Healing Surges:"

Emphasis on the plural. That seems to indicate that the number following gives the number of it. If it'd be hit points, it would rather be one of the following:

Healing Surge: (singular)
Hit points per Healing Surge:

...or something similar.

Cheers, LT.