D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

Yaarel · Jun 8, 2017

The D&D 5e Players Handbook is moreorless identical to what could be called the "Forgotten Realms Players Guide".

True, the 5e PH leaves out alot of "Realms lore". However:
• Perhaps it is impossible for a single book to include all the Realms lore ever published.
• Too much lore would scare away new players anyway.
• The 5e PH is functionally an on-ramp onto the Forgotten Realms highway.

There is room for more FR lore and mechanics. Maybe the Bladesinger class or subclass, the Genasi race, and so on. Lots of room for a FR Players Guide 2, a FR Players Guide 3, and so on.

D&D has reduced to the single "Borg" like all-assimilating setting of Forgotten Realms. And just in case, you believe you have homebrewed an original world that your own imagination has pioneered. Remember. Your world is joined to the Forgotten Realms multiverse, and there is no escape, and the Borg wires will slip through the doors of Sigil to assimilate your world. We are the Forgotten Realms corporate identity. And there is no escape.

Caliban · Jun 8, 2017

Hussar said:
As was mentioned, it IS a thread about why FR is hated. I keep trying to get someone to sell the setting to me but, the only responses I get are either, "Well, ignore the setting material" or "don't use the setting". Neither of which is a ringing endorsement of the setting.

I'm calling BS.

Whining about "why do should I HAVE to use FR Realms, there's too much lore!" is not "Hey, I find the FR setting hard to get into, please sell me on it's better aspects."

Especially when you reject every single positive thing people mention about it out of hand.

At this point, I'm thinking you've been trolling us this entire time.

Sell you on the Realms? Right now I'd take is as a personal insult if you ever sullied it with your filthy non-believer hands!

You want the Realms? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE REALMS!

...Um...I mean take it or leave it. Whatevs. :blush:

Hussar · Jun 8, 2017

Caliban said:
I'm calling BS.

Whining about "why do should I HAVE to use FR Realms, there's too much lore!" is not "Hey, I find the FR setting hard to get into, please sell me on it's better aspects."

Sorry, but, where did I ever say I have to use the Realms? I think you might be ascribing things to me that I haven't said. But, that being said, I realize I'm not getting my point across very well, so, take it as read that I mean "Hey, I find the FR setting hard to get into, please sell me on its better aspects".

Especially when you reject every single positive thing people mention about it out of hand.

What positive things have been mentioned in this thread? I keep asking for positive things and the only answer I get is, "You don't have to use the material". Then again, this is a pretty fast moving thread, so maybe I missed something. So, please, show me what I missed.

At this point, I'm thinking you've been trolling us this entire time.

Sell you on the Realms? Right now I'd take is as a personal insult if you ever sullied it with your filthy non-believer hands!

You want the Realms? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE REALMS!

...Um...I mean take it or leave it. Whatevs.

LOL. Ok, fair enough. I probably deserved that. Thing is, I do recognize that this is a very popular setting. It's got a longevity that blows virtually any other setting for any game really, right out of the water. There's what, 35 years of material there? More? Obviously there's something to this setting that people like. It wouldn't be the premier setting for D&D if there wasn't.

So, again, sell it to me. Tell me why the Realms is this fantastic setting that doesn't reference the mountain of material. Like I've said more than a few times; I don't hate the Realms. I think there's lots of cool stuff there. Hell Sturgeon's Law says that there must be some real gems there. But, as far as I can see, the Realms seems to be the setting that people like to read about, more than actually play. And, well, that doesn't appeal to me.

Lanefan · Jun 8, 2017

Yaarel said:
True, the 5e PH leaves out alot of "Realms lore". However:
• Perhaps it is impossible for a single book to include all the Realms lore ever published. ...

I sometimes wonder if it's possible for a single library to hold all the Realms lore ever published...

Caliban · Jun 8, 2017

Hussar said:
Sorry, but, where did I ever say I have to use the Realms? I think you might be ascribing things to me that I haven't said.

Sorry, I was imprecise. You've been saying you "have to" know all the Realms lore before you can decide on what to use or not use, if you were going to use them. Which you aren't. And then, "have to" know the lore to use even the maps. Circular arguments on your part, repeated over and over again.

When people refute these points, you just start over from the beginning. After awhile it all blended together, all I could remember was "but why should do I have to...?". Usually accompanied by mental images of a child stomping their feet and pouting.

But, that being said, I realize I'm not getting my point across very well, so, take it as read that I mean "Hey, I find the FR setting hard to get into, please sell me on its better aspects".

I really don't think so. This:

Hussar said:
For me, I don't hate the Realms. But, that being said, I'll never actually use them either. There's just too much stuff.

Sounds like the opposite of "Sell me on the Realms." Eventually you say "tell me what's so good about it", but really you just complain and reject everything out of hand.

What positive things have been mentioned in this thread? I keep asking for positive things and the only answer I get is, "You don't have to use the material". Then again, this is a pretty fast moving thread, so maybe I missed something. So, please, show me what I missed.

The wealth of background material available. The hundreds of published adventures set in the Realms that you can run with minimal effort on your part. Active support from WOTC. A huge fanbase and knowledge base of people who have played in and run in the Realms for years, most of whom are very willing to answer questions, share stories, and talk about the more esoteric points of Realms Lore.

But all of that is the very thing you complain about, so yeah, if you think every positive thing is a drawback... You really shouldn't use the Realms.

So, again, sell it to me. Tell me why the Realms is this fantastic setting that doesn't reference the mountain of material.

No. Because the Realms is a fantastic setting that DOES reference mountains of material. That's one of best parts. You don't need to use any of it, but it's there if you want to.

If you can't handle that...don't use the Realms.

Like I've said more than a few times; I don't hate the Realms.

And that sounds less and less believable every time you say it.

I think there's lots of cool stuff there. Hell Sturgeon's Law says that there must be some real gems there. But, as far as I can see, the Realms seems to be the setting that people like to read about, more than actually play. And, well, that doesn't appeal to me.

Then for god's sake, DON'T USE THE REALMS.

Based on what I've seen here, you'd just do poor job of it anyways.

So here's my pitch: Agree to never use the FR setting, and we'll never speak of this again.

Mirtek · Jun 8, 2017

Lanefan said:
I sometimes wonder if it's possible for a single library to hold all the Realms lore ever published...

Every FR novels don't even fill two Ikea billi shelves.

At least if you only collect every novel once. But even collecting every novel in all variant s (hardcover and paperback and reprints with updated cover Art) should not Quote double the required shelf space.

Gaming Material on top and we're at 6-8 billi shelves max.

Davelozzi · Jun 8, 2017

Why FR Is "Hated"

Hussar said:
As was mentioned, it IS a thread about why FR is hated. I keep trying to get someone to sell the setting to

If you haven't been convinced in 27 pages worth of posts, there is no chance that someone is going to be able to sell the setting to you when you so clearly have such strong feelings about it already. Why do you want us too? If the thread is stressing you out, walk away already.

Aldarc · Jun 8, 2017

Caliban said:
Based on what I've seen here, you'd just do poor job of it anyways.

So here's my pitch: Agree to never use the FR setting, and we'll never speak of this again.

Your post could have profited much better without these sort of insults or insinuations of bad GMing. :erm:

Hussar said:
LOL. Ok, fair enough. I probably deserved that. Thing is, I do recognize that this is a very popular setting. It's got a longevity that blows virtually any other setting for any game really, right out of the water. There's what, 35 years of material there? More? Obviously there's something to this setting that people like. It wouldn't be the premier setting for D&D if there wasn't.

So, again, sell it to me. Tell me why the Realms is this fantastic setting that doesn't reference the mountain of material. Like I've said more than a few times; I don't hate the Realms. I think there's lots of cool stuff there. Hell Sturgeon's Law says that there must be some real gems there. But, as far as I can see, the Realms seems to be the setting that people like to read about, more than actually play. And, well, that doesn't appeal to me.

I recognize that it's not my place to sell you on the Realms, since I make it a point to veto any play in the Realms. But I suppose that's also where we have a shared problem. It's difficult for us to see the particular appeal of the setting. For us, it fails the fundamental question of the test: "So what?" Ignoring the settings identified as "niche," it's not as if we are somehow lacking generic settings: Greyhawk, Mystara, and Dragonlance. Most homebrews, despite the proud protestors pretending otherwise, would fall into generic fantasy as well.

That appears to be part of the problem. The appeal of the setting has likely shifted from its original focus and appeal of the original box. It's no longer only that it's a generic setting. There is tradition and nostalgia there. It's that it's a generic setting with a tremendous amount of accumulated lore, fiction, and media behind it. There is appeal in the mountain of material. But for us, that is also a self-defeating quality to the Realms that turns us off from it. We don't want all that detail that leaves barely anything, not even the windows, to the imagination! Forgotten Realms, for me at least, has become the homebrewer that we warn others not to become in homebrewing advice threads: "it's not healthy to detail everything" or "you may put in a lot of work and details into your setting, but players will likely not get much of it, so it's best to expend your efforts elsewhere." If I want a richly flavorful setting, I'm likely to look towards those niche settings. If I want a generic setting, particularly as a sandbox or open world, it seems that either a generic homebrew setting, Nentir Vale, or Greyhawk would be more useful for my purposes.

-------------------------------

Another fun analogy: I was discussing the Realms with another D&D gaming friend of mine, as I wanted to compare experiences. Though he voiced some admiration at the convenience of the Realms as a generic setting, he also voiced a simultaneous distaste of the Realms due to its NPCs (and its genericness). But he also offered an analogy that I found illustrative and amusing. He said, albeit not verbatim, "You know those parties that you would potentially want to go to, but don't because you don't want to run into those people that you absolutely can't stomach? You may never even see those people, but there is still the chance that you will and that they are in the same building with you? That's the Realms for me."

However, we have our differences in that he potentially would want to play in the Realms, whereas I do not. For a setting whose fanbase beams in pride at the sheer amount of information is available, I can't say that I'm impressed with its world-building. For all the lore that it supposedly has, this is the world that we have? Meh. :erm:

Caliban · Jun 8, 2017

Mirtek said:
Every FR novels don't even fill two Ikea billi shelves.

At least if you only collect every novel once. But even collecting every novel in all variant s (hardcover and paperback and reprints with updated cover Art) should not Quote double the required shelf space.

Gaming Material on top and we're at 6-8 billi shelves max.

Well, then there are all the articles in Dragon Magazines over the years, plus hundreds of published adventures that fill in bits of lore if you care to use them.

Somewhere I have a CD atlas of the Realms that collected hundreds and hundreds of maps and bits of lore in one place. I used to peruse it for hours just reading about places I'd never actually use...

Caliban · Jun 8, 2017

Aldarc said:
Your post could have profited much better without these sort of insults or insinuations of bad GMing.

I think it is exactly what was needed. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edit - and I wasn't insinuating anything about GM'ing either. That's all on you.

If someone complains about having to do even minimal reading on the setting...they aren't going to do a good job of representing the setting, regardless of their GM'ing skills.