D&D 5E So Why is 5E So Popular?

Jester David said:

5e has a mechanical nostalgia, but 3e and 4e both tried to bring in old school people with classic modules. All three have done Tomb of Horrors updates, 3e and 5e did Ravenloft, and 4e and 5e did homages to Against the Giants. They've all done little throwbacks and homages.

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Oh, they've all done that - the classic modules - but the *system* itself in 3 and 4 were very inovative. So is 5e, but there is definitely an attempt to invoke nostalgia with the rules themselves.

Simple example. How much healing does a potion of healing do? 2d4+2. Why? Well, that's what a potion of healing did in 2nd ed....

I think you'll be surprised how little impact Pathfinder 2 has on D&D. There are quite a few people here unhappy with the slow release schedule, but the forums aren't particularly representative. In generally I think people are very happy with the slower pace of books.
And I think Pathfinder 2 will also adopt a slower release schedule in the future as well, mirroring the slow pace of Starfinder.

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I agree with you. At worse/best (depending on your perspective), pathfinder will take a small portion of 5e players... but because there are so much more 5e players, that would be a great boon to Paizo.

I think the real question is how much impact will PF2 have on Pathfinder in general...

Just because people are experienced players doesn't mean they like complexity. In the 80s, most new players went to AD&D because they thought it was the "real" D&D and didn't want the simplified "Basic" game, while many of the older and experienced players went with BECMI because it was faster and let them focus on the story. There are a LOT of veteran players who are very happy with 5e and happily reject the needless complexity of PF (and that PF2 is expected to have).

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Totally agree with that! Preparing a game takes time, and if I can spend more time on story and less time on rules, that's a great thing!

robus said:

But that’s a fascinating concept that WotC might have stumbled into an optimally streamable system. Has Mercer commented on why they switched? I thought it was simply because 5e was the new hotness... but perhaps he also was excited about the more stream friendly mechanics?

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Matt Mercer is not a negative guy, but looking around it seems that he has expressed a storage preference for the low overhead of 5E versus PF.

I dunno if 5E is the "optimal" streaming game, but it is a fair sight better than other recent D&D editions.

Products succeed or fail for many reasons. Some you can plan for, others not.

One difference for 5th was more money behind the product. That is huge. Two companies with similar products: A & B. B is the better product, but A has much more money for marketing, distribution, development, etc. A will usually beat out B in the marketplace, assuming of course that A is at least an ok product.

Nostalgia brought back quite a few old-timers who had lost interest in the way RPG's evolved. Whether perception or reality isn't relevant, as perception is mostly market reality.

For new players, PF can seem a daunting proposition. 5th has an easier, friendlier feel to it.

It is a much different market than even 6 years ago. Look at the reemergence of board games. It is "cool" to be a nerd, even sexy!

I think there is plenty of room for both D&D and PF (whether 1 or 2). I have no desire to get into that battle. Not to mention all of the other RPG systems that seem to get marginalized, such as Castles & Crusades, Hackmaster, etc. Chose your poison.

(Though as a damn good free-lance copywriter, I will be glad to enter the arena on behalf of either/any company who wants to make use of my services).

I do find it interesting that Paizo in some videos has bent over backwards emphasizing how 5th had nothing to do with the rewrite for PF2. A bit disingenuous I think. Besides, I wouldn't want to invest in a company that didn't stay on top of what their competitors were doing. If I were asked, I would boast about how we track and learn and improve based upon what our competitors do. And as such, we are bringing to market the new & improved PF2. That's smart business. Though I think it hugely important they make it backwards compatible and phase it in. No need to piss off your already large and loyal supporters.

Mercer et al are polished performers. They have a large amount of theatre training and experience, plus a performers mindset that brings the show to life. And of course an exiting fan base due to their work in the gaming industry.

It is in some ways a throwback to early radio shows. In some cases you could go to the studio and watch the performers as they recorded the show. It is as much good entertainment as it is D&D. I suspect, this would have made for an interesting experiment, that whatever they had chosen for rules it would have been successful. And as such, the rules would also have taken on greater popularity.

I hope they receive residuals from WOTC for their use of D&D.

4e is kinda famous for having a TON of money behind it. Quite a lot more than 5e if early reports are to be believed. Even given the freedom WotC gave to the dnd folks to do the playtest without any new products. Which had to be expensive.

And I recall some criticism about the 5e playtest, that the dnd crew had been cut so close to the bone that they HAD to lean on the player base to help design the edition. As if having the player base help were a bad thing.

robus said:

But that’s a fascinating concept that WotC might have stumbled into an optimally streamable system. Has Mercer commented on why they switched? I thought it was simply because 5e was the new hotness... but perhaps he also was excited about the more stream friendly mechanics?

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I wondered that too but in the second "5e roundtable" he did confirm that a more streamlined system was at least a major part of the decision to switch.

ETA; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFbCxuvknWM about 17min in.

D&D 5E somehow feels like a trimmed down D&D 3E, yet also feels as simple as Basic D&D Red Box,. I guess it’s more a vibe thing then anything else.
Whilst I can certainly think of better games to GM, I really do enjoy being a PC in a D&D 5E game.

Massive social media and marketing presence. The sharp rise in streaming has made it accessable to normies as opposed to being a niche nerd only game.
Unlike 4e it doesn't require a set of tools just to build a character and the monster balance is pretty good. CR1 monsters are still relevant against level 10 party. Magic items are a bonus not a technological requirement. Less math than 4th and much less maths than 3.x
Game flows much better and faster than 3.x or 4th.

In summary; marketing + more refined product = win

IMO, it's simply a matter of having the right product at the right time.

5e is a very good game, but it's also lucky enough that the zeitgeist just now is coming off a wave of geek-chic (things like "The Big Bang Theory") and is now riding a huuge wave of 80's nostalgia ("The Goldbergs", "Stranger Things", "Ready Player One").

And, yes, it doesn't at all hurt that 5e got immense goodwill from being a return to form after the misstep of 4e.