American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

Thomas Bowman · Jul 28, 2018

This is an idea I picked up from a dream I had last night. Imagine wooden ships crewed by American Indians wearing black hats and frock coats landing on the shores of Europe and Africa in 1250 BC armed with gunpowder muskets and cannons. The Indians don't have horses, so when they see them it is for the first time. The Indians have a monotheistic religion and Worship the Goddess Earth, and they meet a bunch of pagan Europeans and North Africans, including the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and Babylonians. What do you think would happen here in a realistic situation given these circumstances? Would it make a good role playing setting?

LuisCarlos17f · Jul 28, 2018

You could do it, but better in a fantasy setting.

Thomas Bowman · Jul 28, 2018

if the American Indians have magic, then the Europeans, Africans and Asians have magic too. Magic would tend to reduce the impact of technological differences as spells would tend to dominate on the battlefield.

MNblockhead · Jul 29, 2018

Don't like the black hats and frock coats imagery. Not sure how I see that evolving from their traditional garb or fitting their monotheistic, earth-based religion.

You imagery does fit the look of the Paiute Ghost Dance prophet Wovoka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wovoka), but his clothing is European.

If your premise is that North American First Nations built ships and discovered Europe, I picture these explorers and conquerors looking like:

duncan,-robert,-(1952--)-winters-emptiness,-oil-on-board,-24-x-20.jpg

Next you have to decide whether your culture is based on the Mesoamerican model of governance (e.g. Aztec), which is more familiar to old-world European models. Or perhaps the North Eastern style federated government (e.g. Iriquois League's "Law of Peace").

As for their religion, if monotheistic, I would have them worship a Master Spirit. One that can take on male or female form, referred to as "The Great Spirit", a creator God and concneption of universal spiritual force. You may go further and instead of translating as "The Great Spirit" , use "The Great Mystery." But perhaps, while only one god, they still believe that all living things in nature have spirits

Also, there would be no conception of a split between the natural and the supernatural. Therefore the religious memes would be less threatened by science. So even assuming religious fanaticism, perhaps certain sciences advance more quickly than they have historically.

For your purposes I would look more at longhouse religions that place importance in the creators original instructions, which could lead to a an imposed orthodoxy.

You need to come up with a reason why they would want to explore and perhaps conquer the peoples they find in Europe. They would not be driven by lack of agriculture. Are they just an enlightened culture seeking kknowlege? Perhaps upon discovering the europeans, there are goods that Europe offers not available in north america (horses, silk and other fabrics, alcohol, spices). Perhaps there are rival kingdoms/tribes/states in the Americas and while they share a religion and have many cultural simularities, they compete politically and economically. They set up the native american version of the British/Dutch East India Companies and end up colonizing various parts of Europe -- though I would think that they would find India, Africa, and Asia more promising.

Umbran · Jul 29, 2018

Thomas Bowman said:
This is an idea I picked up from a dream I had last night. Imagine wooden ships crewed by American Indians wearing black hats and frock coats landing on the shores of Europe and Africa in 1250 BC armed with gunpowder muskets and cannons. The Indians don't have horses, so when they see them it is for the first time. The Indians have a monotheistic religion and Worship the Goddess Earth, and they meet a bunch of pagan Europeans and North Africans, including the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and Babylonians. What do you think would happen here in a realistic situation given these circumstances? Would it make a good role playing setting?

There are lots of problems with doing such a thing, in terms of respectful representation of the cultures of others. You are basically saying, "Let us make Native Americans into Europeans, and turn the tables". And you're doing it in detail - let us dress them like Europeans. Let us give them weapons like Europeans. Let us give them religion like Europeans. As if their culture were not strong enough to give birth to different expressions than what we've already seen in the world?

To do this well, you'd have to study several native American cultures to some depth, and extrapolate what *they* would do if given the technological advancements in question. They should differ as much form the Europeans as other major cultures differ from Europeans.

In that sense, no, as given not a great setting.

There's also an issue with your proposal, in that you're pulling gunpowder and major metallurgical technologies back a couple of millennia. A couple of centuries, and nobody would bat an eye. But millenia probably needs some explanation.

Thomas Bowman · Jul 30, 2018

American Indians are human just like Europeans, they are just as subject to vices as Europeans are. I think if American Indians got more civilized on their own, they would become less nature oriented. On the other hand, the Ancient Egyptians worshipped a lot of animalistic gods and goddesses.

Are these dissimilar to American Indian gods? I think at one point in their history, maybe before they started building their great pyramids, the culture of Egyptians was nature oriented and very similar to the American Indians. I think the Egyptians of 1250 BC are comparable to the Aztecs of 1450 AD. What do you think? They both built pyramids!

Jhaelen · Jul 30, 2018

Thomas Bowman said:
This is an idea I picked up from a dream I had last night.

Umm, yeah. Or rather, no. Best forget about it.

Bluenose · Jul 30, 2018

They get sick from all sorts of diseases that they've never been exposed to but which are common in Eurasia, the Eurasians wait till they're weakened by this and massacre most of them, keeping some as prisoners to teach them how to make all these wonderful devices.

Old World Diseases celebrates another victory.

Thomas Bowman · Jul 30, 2018

Bluenose said:
They get sick from all sorts of diseases that they've never been exposed to but which are common in Eurasia, the Eurasians wait till they're weakened by this and massacre most of them, keeping some as prisoners to teach them how to make all these wonderful devices.

Old World Diseases celebrates another victory.

I didn't say conquering three continents would be easy. You know what started the slave trade? Malaria, it is an African disease brought to the New World by Europeans, and Europeans and Indians kept dying of it, so that made it uneconomic to use indentured servants south of the Mason-Dixon line, so they brought in black slaves as they had a natural resistance to that disease. What would the American Indians do if they tried to conquer Africa and mine out its gold and diamonds? The answer seems pretty obvious. The fact that Indians would keep dying tends to discourage settlers trying to make a home for themselves in Europe as well.

Eltab · Jul 30, 2018

I think 'North America discovers the Old World' would work out about how the Viking explorations did.

There is a brief period of strategic surprise. Based on how the contacts went (trade vs plunder), the residents decide to assimilate / exploit / exterminate the outsiders. When the death-and-disappearance rate exceeds the replenishment rate, the outpost is gone. And in the Europeans' case, they now KNOW that something is out there. So they go looking, perhaps back-tracking any map they found.

Instead of travelling to far Cathay tracking down silk, Marco Polo discovers a New World !