American Indians Colonize the Old world in 1250 BC

[dragoner]

I disagree completely. In Western Europe you have the so-called "Atlantic Bronze Age" which sees trade from Scandinavia all the way down to Portugal, with finely-crafted items of bronze and precious metals, the Mediterranean is *teeming* with culture, from the Hittites, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Elamites, the Arameans, the humble beginnings of Greek culture.....

Most of those cultures which are either in or adjacent to southwest Asia. There are bronze age wicker towns all across Europe in this time, someone might be able to make it interesting with magic and the supernatural; except outside the main civs, I don't find that interesting, at least from the perspective of some era-bending invasion by First Peoples, one wouldn't even need the invasion element in order to create the late bronze age setting then.

 

[Sadras]

This is an idea I picked up from a dream I had last night. Imagine wooden ships crewed by American Indians wearing black hats and frock coats landing on the shores of Europe and Africa in 1250 BC armed with gunpowder muskets and cannons. The Indians don't have horses, so when they see them it is for the first time. The Indians have a monotheistic religion and Worship the Goddess Earth, and they meet a bunch of pagan Europeans and North Africans, including the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, and Babylonians. What do you think would happen here in a realistic situation given these circumstances? Would it make a good role playing setting?

To be honest no. But why do you think it would make for an interesting roleplaying setting?
What specifically about the American Indian culture would you want incorporate into the roleplaying setting that would make it richer than roleplaying Africans having the technology or Europeans having the technology and landing of the shores of Asia? i.e. Why American Indians?

Also to note, Amero-Indians worshiping the Goddess Earth doesn't make them any less pagan than the Europeans and the Africans.

 

[Sadras]

Cultural minefield is a nice way of saying don't be racist. That someone else has been racist in the past so that it's ok to be racist, is possibly some of the worst advice I have ever heard.

This has nothing to do with racism, the fact that a few detractors on this board decided to bring in the issue of racism in a what-if fantasy game is on them. So @Derren is 100% right - the OP should pretty much ignore them.

 

[dragoner]

This has nothing to do with racism, the fact that a few detractors on this board decided to bring in the issue of racism in a what-if fantasy game is on them. So @Derren is 100% right - the OP should pretty much ignore them.

No, not at all, the potential is always there, except some subjects are more fraught with peril than others. Already it has been seen here with the Hollywood representation of all of the Native Americans as Great Plains nomads, to the actual reality that most people were farmers or fishers that lived in towns, and where there were even cities, such as at Cahokia.

 

[tomBitonti]

The focus seems a bit off, re: cultural issues. Would there be the same objections if presented the idea of any number of cultures persisting to this day? Say, if for any number of possible reasons Egyptian culture remained dominant and spread across Europe and Northern Africa? Or the same with the Greek and Roman empires? Or if Moorish Spain spread to more of Europe?

And ... there have been many placements of Meso-American cultures in D&D books. Kara-Tur and Maztica. The module The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. And other placements: Druids and Knghtly Orders. Monks and Assassins. Any number of appropriations of culturally styled burial chambers.

Thx!
TomB

 

[dragoner]

Would there be the same objections if presented the idea of any number of cultures persisting to this day?

Not really, except it depends, and it still can be a cultural minefield. The admonition was only to be sensitive to the issues. Though none of your ideas start with:

Imagine wooden ships crewed by American Indians wearing black hats and frock coats landing on the shores of Europe and Africa in 1250 BC armed with gunpowder muskets and cannons.

...

What do you think would happen here in a realistic situation given these circumstances?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

To be honest no. But why do you think it would make for an interesting roleplaying setting?
What specifically about the American Indian culture would you want incorporate into the roleplaying setting that would make it richer than roleplaying Africans having the technology or Europeans having the technology and landing of the shores of Asia? i.e. Why American Indians?

Also to note, Amero-Indians worshiping the Goddess Earth doesn't make them any less pagan than the Europeans and the Africans.

What did Europeans worship 2250 years ago? Most Europeans were not monotheistic at that time, they worshipped all sorts of gods and goddesses, including those of the Greeks and Romans. Also none of them would be speaking modern English The only thing these modern Indians would have in common with their ancestors would be their physical appearance, they would be wearing different clothes, and most of them wouldn't not be hunter gatherers, but farmers. They might be a little shocked when the see the bearded, sword swinging, barbarians inhabiting the far shore of the Atlantic Ocean, and those modern Indians would call the "savages". Mothers would tell their kids stories of those savage European tribesmen with spears, some of them were even cannibals, giving such children nightmares about all the terrible things those "bearded savages" would do to them. Those Indians would be especially worried about what would happen to their women folk that got captured by those bearded barbarians. Basically it is a role reversal. The Egyptians and Persians would be exceptionally tough, but those would not be the people the Colonist Indians would encounter first. Indians would pray to their Great Spirit for deliverance and to protect them from the cruel depredations of those "savage" Europeans, Asians, and Africans.


It is a bit of a role reversal, and Much of Europe, Asia, and Africa can be considered wilderness areas by the American Indian standards. Lots of tall trees in Europe, and a lot of wildlife, animals that are very similar to those of North America, and those horses really are game changers, many would be brought back to North American in wooden ships.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Human beings are human beings American Indians would do the same things that European colonists did when they came to America, they would clear forests in Europe and build farms. European tribesmen would resent these intruders, and would hunt their buffalo in their pens, and there would be fights between Europeans and the Indians The Indians would have guns, while the Europeans would have bows and arrows and spears. Some Indians would trade steel knives for fur pelts and some Indians traders would sell guns to the white people of Europe. Some of the tribesmen would stage raids against the various Indian fortifications, and their would be reprisals against white villages and so it would go.

There would be lots of excitement here, and lots of unexpected twists and turns on this frontier, how could it not be an interesting role playing setting?

 

[Thomas Bowman]

The focus seems a bit off, re: cultural issues. Would there be the same objections if presented the idea of any number of cultures persisting to this day? Say, if for any number of possible reasons Egyptian culture remained dominant and spread across Europe and Northern Africa? Or the same with the Greek and Roman empires? Or if Moorish Spain spread to more of Europe?

And ... there have been many placements of Meso-American cultures in D&D books. Kara-Tur and Maztica. The module The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. And other placements: Druids and Knghtly Orders. Monks and Assassins. Any number of appropriations of culturally styled burial chambers.

Thx!
TomB

A lot of additional culture would have to be invented for the Indians, as we're assuming 2225 years of additional history for them. I don't think many Indians would be much offended about the assumptions we're making about them. Most of these assumptions are positive, that they can invent and advance if given a chance, and why shouldn't they? usually when two cultures meet and one is way more advanced than the other, then there would be trouble. the only part of this that is historical is the Old World people's, we know of their culture and traditions. how would they react to these invaders from across the sea. Would they learn to smith their own firearms, would they learn to work steel? The Egyptians would have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

In our history, Indians did get their hands on guns, the Battle of the Little Big Horn which killed Custer and his men was due to the Indians being better armed with repeater rifles, while Custer's Soldiers had muzzle loaders.

No, the US Cavalry was not armed with muzzle loaders in 1876. In fact, Custer had a detachment of Gatling guns. He lost because he massively underestimated the Indians' numbers and allowed himself to be encircled.