Generation Ships--- Can we build one now?

Hussar

Legend
Regarding the slavery issue - I read that there is a fellow in India that is suing his own parents for having giving him life. He wasn't asked if he wanted to live, and there would have been plenty of children they could have adopted instead. Interesting idea.

But fundamentally, parents always make decisions about their children. Starting with that they decide to have them, but also by where they live. And the children will have to somehow integrate into society. Sure, they could at some point decide to leave the current home, city or nation, but hey always have to live somewhere, and they will always end up having to "work" to keep living, and if it's hunting wild animals or collecting berries, or begging for food or whatever. If that counts as slavery, then we are already all enslaved right now. But I think slavery is usually reserved for something much more specific than that.

Well, what would you call it then when you are born into a system where you CANNOT leave, CANNOT choose your job, CANNOT choose your reproduction, CANNOT choose a different path?

Ok, not slavery, then Throat Warbler Mangrove. I really don't give a :):):):) what you want to call it, it's still monstrous and a complete violation of human rights.
 

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Ryujin

Legend
Couple of problems with your example though.

When Windows crashes, I lose my essay. When your life support system crashes, people die. There is a bit more at stake here. And, again, we're talking about computer systems that are running an entire environment. A very, very large environment. As you say, the problems are when some systems aren't updated in a timely manner.

Are you saying that every generation would update their systems in a timely manner every time, generation after generation? Nothing would get overlooked? Because overlooking this system over there can result in all sorts of badness. Hope everyone works at 100% efficiency with no mistakes over thousands of years.

Yeah, good luck with that.

It's not about being risk free. It's about recognizing that a "risk" over a long enough time span is virtually guaranteed to occur and so many of these risks are catastrophic. Particularly when the chances of these risks rely on people.

Risk would almost certainly be mitigated by compartmentalization and parallel systems, with backups. Over time you would likely lose some of that, but it would be there to start at least.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Having to work is just a normal part of being alive. Unless you have someone else working hard enough to be able to support themselves and you as well and is that the kind of useless life that anyone aspires to? No, it is just like being a child eventually you have to grow up and become independant. On your second point I would imagine that there would be vocations that you could study for and that the crew would choose the people best suited for those vocations. I dont think that there would be a choice about being able to work or not, everyone would need to work together as a team. But in any case there is a large large difference between being a servant and being a slave.

Yes, the difference between a servant and a slave is that the servant gets paid and can quit. The slave is forced to work.

At least one person is claiming that an arranged marriage is slavery. But then if having to work to live is also slavery then I guess everything is slavery all the way down.

You don't have to work. You can opt to go homeless as some people do.
 

Hussar

Legend
A Strawman?

How is it a strawman?

You are not allowed to have children. The population has to be carefully controlled. How exactly do you plan to enforce that? Forced sterilization? Forced abortion?

Also, since it's a closed system, any child born is replacing an adult who has died. So when Bob the Engineer dies, Suzie gets to be born and she has zero choice. She must become an engineer. She can't be a botanist because we already have those. She can't start her own business, because the ship requires an engineer. So, from birth, Suzie is chosen to be the next engineer to replace Bob, that's the only education she is allowed. Because it would be a waste of resources to train her for anything else and the ship cannot afford to waste resources.

Which, of course, brings up another elephant in the room. Exactly when does Bob the Engineer die? Once he is too old to work, does he get to take a long walk out an airlock? How exactly do we care for our elderly and infirm in a system with tight population caps and virtually no extra resources? It's not like we have space for those who cannot contribute to the function of the ship. So, are we recycling Bob on his 65th birthday? When would retirement age be anyway? Can I retire early?

Oh, right, I can't quit. Somehow I'm not a slave, but, I cannot choose my job and I can never, ever quit my job. But, I'm not a slave, apparently. Because you cannot have institutional slavery apparently. Slaves must be owned by someone to be a slave. :uhoh:

So, @ Shasarak, how do you deal with people who want to change vocations?

And, [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] (sorry about the errr... slip of the keyboard there. Little frustration boiled through. Won't happen again.) you talked about innovation. What innovation? You are in a closed system with little spare resources and no outside information coming in. How, exactly, are you going to innovate? You cannot afford experimentation.
 

You're making a lot of assumptions abou the way the system would work. Why would anyone chosen from birth to assume a particular role? That would be most likely a very short-sighted system, because the person might not actually be good at the job you intended for him.

When Bob the Engineer dies, there must be already someone there to take over his duties, we can't wait for Suzie to grow up.

Most people in any society grow up to become part of it and take a job that the society in some manner needs.
There might be outliers that don't, but if your system is not designed with certain redudancies in mind to compensate that, then it can't work for centuries or millenia as would be required for a generation ship.

How exactly do we care for our elderly and infirm in a system with tight population caps and virtually no extra resources?
I think that is the critical flaw here. Yes, the resources are tight. But you must have "extra" resources. That is one of the challenges of making a generation ship - putting all the resoures you will need aboard to compensate for when things go wrong, and including the capability to recycle, repair, regrow stuff that you consume.
People not wanting to do any job, people getting old and needing medical care without contributing, people getting into accidents, people committing suicide, you need to be prepared for that and have redundancies for it.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You are not allowed to have children. The population has to be carefully controlled. How exactly do you plan to enforce that? Forced sterilization? Forced abortion?

We already have birth control techniques. I would presume something similar is used to choose when children are born.

Also, since it's a closed system, any child born is replacing an adult who has died. So when Bob the Engineer dies, Suzie gets to be born and she has zero choice.

This is probably overstated. In general, we need a stable population, yes. In a practical workforce sense, a child born today is replacing someone who dies 20 years later. But that does not mean that each child specifically replaces their own parent. In fact, quite the opposite - the kid's parents are probably still alive when they enter the workforce on the ship.

We are talking about a ship that has to carry a viable breeding population of humans - we are probably talking thousands of individuals. This is a town or city flying through space. There is (and, I daresay needs to be) some wiggle room as to who does what, so long as we have enough of everything. Honestly, in all likelihood, you *don't* have the situation where every individual is essential to ship operations. Most of the people on board are just folks - you fly with greater human capacity than you need, in part so that things like this are not an issue. Take 10,000 people with you, and enough will have the aptitudes you need in essential crew. The rest are passengers.

And, [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] (sorry about the errr... slip of the keyboard there. Little frustration boiled through. Won't happen again.) you talked about innovation. What innovation? You are in a closed system with little spare resources and no outside information coming in. How, exactly, are you going to innovate? You cannot afford experimentation.

Quite the opposite - you *NEED* experimentation. The idea that people on Earth thought of everything before you left is ludicrous. The idea that you cold *stop* human innovation on the scale of generations is also nonsensical. People on the ship will have new ideas. People on Earth will have new ideas, and will transmit them to the ship!

"Experimentation" does not mean "put a new idea into production use without testing." But, even today, we make changes to spacecraft after flight has begun - most frequently in software. A friend of mine used to work for NASA doing software updates for craft that had gyroscopes fail, among other things, to keep a craft at least somewhat functional when physical systems no longer function. Here's an article on an example of software upgrades to spacecraft: http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/03/28/software-upgrade-at-655-million-kilometres/

Darned tootin' if we were present, you'd see us replacing physical parts, too.

Did you see The Martian? The bits where Matt Damon's character communicates with Earth, and they come up with plans and changes to help him survive? That's not implausible.

You leave Earth *with* spare resources, and the ability to recycle. Every part of the ship needs to be replaceable, and you need to be able to make new parts. You have redundant systems so that you can have one down while you repair or upgrade another. You may have the idea that the ship must be static - get that out of your head. The only things humans build that last for centuries unchanged are piles of stone. This thing must be dynamic. Change is part of the plan.
 

I found one of the most astonishing things about update the Voyager 2 Probe. They already designed them back in the 70s with updates in mind, and it's kinda crazy what they had to do to still be able to update them, decades into the mission. The probes are so far away that the signal gets horribly distorted, so that there is an incredible amount of redundancy in what they send so the probe can still figure out the real message.
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
When Bob the Engineer dies, there must be already someone there to take over his duties, we can't wait for Suzie to grow up.

Yes, because there is no other way, society isn't accidental, it's evolved. The reality is that like most modern societies, it will be a bureaucracy with a facade of democracy.
 

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