Generation Ships--- Can we build one now?

Hussar · Jan 31, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Linguistic drift can be minimized with things like audio recordings and dictionarys. They haven't existed for most of the last 2000 years.

True, but, language drifts very quickly. Compare Parisian French with Quebecois - two languages that started out the same, but, have drifted considerably in just a couple of hundred years.

And, what would really drive linguistic drift is specialization. The engineers might be able to read the technical manuals of their particular field, but, have no idea how to read the landing procedures manual. Or how to repair the hydroponics bay. That sort of thing. Technical jargon makes linguistic drift even worse.

And, sure, we can learn Latin, but, A. There's no guarantee that what you learn is actually correct and B. we can learn Latin because we have massive libraries of a couple of thousand years of translations to compare to. Again, in a small, closed society, likely stratified by work type, it's entirely possible that parts of the ship won't be able to communicate with each other.

I mean, good grief, it's hard enough talking to that IT guy now. Imagine after 500 years of linguistic drift.

Tonguez · Feb 1, 2019

Hussar said:
True, but, language drifts very quickly. Compare Parisian French with Quebecois - two languages that started out the same, but, have drifted considerably in just a couple of hundred years.

And, what would really drive linguistic drift is specialization. The engineers might be able to read the technical manuals of their particular field, but, have no idea how to read the landing procedures manual. Or how to repair the hydroponics bay. That sort of thing. Technical jargon makes linguistic drift even worse.

And, sure, we can learn Latin, but, A. There's no guarantee that what you learn is actually correct and B. we can learn Latin because we have massive libraries of a couple of thousand years of translations to compare to. Again, in a small, closed society, likely stratified by work type, it's entirely possible that parts of the ship won't be able to communicate with each other.

I mean, good grief, it's hard enough talking to that IT guy now. Imagine after 500 years of linguistic drift.

But both the hydroponics manuals and engineering manuals are written in the same language as are a vast database of downloadable books, videos and music. Indeed it is very much like when church Latin was a Lingua Franca and I think the differences would be more akin to Bronx v Scouse v Hong Kong English

Hussar · Feb 1, 2019

But, in your three examples, these are all contemporary languages. Compare Bronx English to say 12th century English and you’d have a better comparison.

Or put it this way; how many of us can read Chaucer without any cliff notes?

Tonguez · Feb 1, 2019

Hussar said:
But, in your three examples, these are all contemporary languages. Compare Bronx English to say 12th century English and you’d have a better comparison.

Or put it this way; how many of us can read Chaucer without any cliff notes?

yeah, thats a good point when it comes to common crew, but we do need to account for the lack of widespread communication and social media from Chaucers time to now, so I think the effect would be less pronunced

.

I'd expect some greater standardisation in dialects especially among the 'educated/technicians' in much the way that Latin was used as the language of scholars in Europe right up to the 19th century in most subjects (including for instance Newton's Principia)

so while there may be huge variance in common vulgar dialects I do expect there to be a single common tongue used by all technical crew and taught as standard curriculum in the pods

Hussar · Feb 1, 2019

Tonguez said:
yeah, thats a good point when it comes to common crew, but we do need to account for the lack of widespread communication and social media from Chaucers time to now, so I think the effect would be less pronunced.

I'd expect some greater standardisation in dialects especially among the 'educated/technicians' in much the way that Latin was used as the language of scholars in Europe right up to the 19th century in most subjects (including for instance Newton's Principia)

so while there may be huge variance in common vulgar dialects I do expect there to be a single common tongue used by all technical crew and taught as standard curriculum in the pods

There isn't a single standard tongue used by technical crew now.

Try getting a botanist to discuss growing stuff with a computer systems analyst. They might be speaking the same language, but, beyond a few basic points, they have no idea what the other is talking about.

Now, stratify a population for a dozens of generations and imagine how little they would actually be able to communicate. Never minding just how much language would be lost due to the paucity of the environment. No concepts linked to nature, weather, animals, most colors, and a whole host of other things would survive beyond a couple of generations.

Imagine trying to understand, say, A Song of Fire and Ice when you have no idea what snow is. Never minding no idea what all those foods are that he goes on about. Horse? Dragon? What do you mean an animal bigger than a house cat? That's just too weird. Oceans and sailing ships? What are those?

Ryujin · Feb 1, 2019

Hussar said:
There isn't a single standard tongue used by technical crew now. Try getting a botanist to discuss growing stuff with a computer systems analyst. They might be speaking the same language, but, beyond a few basic points, they have no idea what the other is talking about.

Now, stratify a population for a dozens of generations and imagine how little they would actually be able to communicate. Never minding just how much language would be lost due to the paucity of the environment. No concepts linked to nature, weather, animals, most colors, and a whole host of other things would survive beyond a couple of generations.

Imagine trying to understand, say, A Song of Fire and Ice when you have no idea what snow is. Never minding no idea what all those foods are that he goes on about. Horse? Dragon? What do you mean an animal bigger than a house cat? That's just too weird. Oceans and sailing ships? What are those?

Possible, if there is actually hard stratification between various groups within the ship. Far less likely if, say, the 'crew' goes home to their arcology dome every night after work. I would posit that sort of mixing would be necessary in order to maintain the gene pool and would be somehow codified into existence. If you start having the engineering crew, pilots, navigators, farmers, etc. all sitting in their own little areas and never interacting, you could have far more serious issues than just language drift.

It also depends upon just how large the population is. A couple of hundred, with millions of hours worth of written and spoken language, and language drift is minimized. Hard stratification is unlikely. Twenty thousand? Perhaps a different story, but I'm not sure.

And Chaucer or Shakespeare aren't exactly examples of how the language was commonly spoken, even in their own times

dragoner · Feb 2, 2019

Beyond sending generation ships out to other stars, I think they might be able to be used to explore, and settle the Solar System, there could be a O'Neill Cylinder or Bernal Sphere with the population of a small city, riding the cycler orbit.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Feb 2, 2019

Tonguez said:
Yep, that’s what prompted my image of the Engineers priesthood recital of the ancient manuals to the faithful crew - they’re not the ruling class (that belongs to Bridge or maybe Security) but they are privileged because they know the Codes and Protocols

However, I am not sure there would be an "Engineer" priesthood or a ruling class. We know from Earth already that class systems suck. They don't actually lead to competent people at the right spot.

I would expect that pretty much everyone aboard the Generation Ship would have duties to fulfill, and everyone would to read manuals and teaching materials, or view instructional videos for something.
And many probably have to be able to fill in multiple roles, because they need to have a good fault-tolerance. If something goes wrong and, say, and an engineering crew is blown out of a hull breach, they need people to fill in quickly.

In everyone's childhood, people would need to study a lot and make aptitude tests to figure out what jobs they are best suited to - of course, there is no absolute guarantee they can work in the job they are best suited for, because there are only so many spots for each job and all the jobs on the ship need to be filled, but they'll try to get people close.
Though it might be that people will also rotate jobs, to avoid people getting bored, and to ensure that everyone is qualified to handle multiple tasks in case the need for a specific job increases (or an important job becomes involuntarily vacant, to use an euphemism for death, sickness or dismemberment)

Eltab · Feb 4, 2019

How many languages are written in Roman letters and Arabic numerals? Being unable to read the technical manuals will be more a function of them being written 'too dense to understand' in the first place, rather than language drift during the trip.

Webster (of Webster's Dictionary fame) was trying to standardize both spelling and pronunciation, to provide Americans with a common language. He failed at the latter but succeeded at the former.

Tangent:
One way to provide a body to fill every job would be a caste system, like Hindu India. I don't know if there is a minimum size of society to make that function. And you do get the problem that the inherited position is filled by somebody who doesn't like the job and performs it poorly.

Ryujin · Feb 4, 2019

Eltab said:
How many languages are written in Roman letters and Arabic numerals? Being unable to read the technical manuals will be more a function of them being written 'too dense to understand' in the first place, rather than language drift during the trip.

Webster (of Webster's Dictionary fame) was trying to standardize both spelling and pronunciation, to provide Americans with a common language. He failed at the latter but succeeded at the former.

Tangent:
One way to provide a body to fill every job would be a caste system, like Hindu India. I don't know if there is a minimum size of society to make that function. And you do get the problem that the inherited position is filled by somebody who doesn't like the job and performs it poorly.

Or a simple hierarchical system like military rank. I think that would be more likely.

Generation Ships--- Can we build one now?

Hussar

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Tonguez

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Hussar

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Tonguez

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Hussar

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Ryujin

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dragoner

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Mustrum_Ridcully

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Eltab

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Ryujin

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