Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
I still use pig faced orcs that are Chaotic (really LE) and made in the image of Grummish. They lack the free will that was granted to the children of gods of good for the most part. Grummish hates free will. As does Maglubiyet, and most of the other evil deities so their creations are stunted in that way though there have been "defective" orcs that find themselves with that free will. Grummish is much better at destroying than creating after all so he screws up sometimes. They are pig faced and green, with pink noses. They speak in squeals for the most part. They do have tribes and shaman/witch doctors though they will cowardly serve anything more powerful then them. I use Roger Moore's work in Dragon on my evil humanoids for the most part, love those articles.
 

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Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
And the discussion for the last 55 pages was why that may or may not be the best of ideas, so thanks for sharing I guess...?

You are very welcome!

My players and I enjoy it and honestly nobody has ever mentioned how using elements of real world cultures, aka the concepts of shaman/witch doctors in primitive societies, is making them into a racist statement on any real world culture. I can't say I base gaming decisions on anything other than what my table will find enjoyable. Trying to redefine D&D monsters though a lense of social and racial justice has never been a drive of ours as we have never tried to use them as a stand in for anything other than foes to be overcome. They need some kind of basic culture to use when making descriptions so unless writers come up with something truly alien they end up using elements of real world cultures. We don't look at orcs as stand in for whatever group you want to say they are a stand in for, they are just orcs. Obviously other feel differently and that's fine. Play how you want.
 

Riley37

First Post
Thank you, you make good points. And I apologize if this was stated earlier and I missed it, I jumped into this conversation a bit late. I'm not sure I agree that you "could not play" a character that differs in appearance than you, but your point still stands.

The origin story of orcs might have been mentioned before, but you gave me an opportunity to consider its ethical implications more deeply, and you prompted me to look up details on LotR elves; I wasn't aware of the bit about black hair until yesterday. Also, the comparison between Firefly and D&D encouraged emotional willingness to consider "this work which I love has a message which I question", for me, anyways (I love both LotR and Firefly, some people don't, tastes vary).

D&D orcs diverged from LotR orcs, in terms of their different origin stories, when D&D invented Gruumsh, creator god of orcs. (Maybe in the AD&D Deities & Demigods book, back before Second Edition). The pig-faced appearance goes back to the AD&D Monster Manual. World of Warcraft reinforced the divergence, and may have influenced the imagery of 4E and 5E D&D. There's an back-and-forth of artistic influence between tabletop games and computer games. And movies. We could consider the WoW movie, if that sparks useful ideas. (Does WoW have yet another orc origin?)

So my point about turning a good race into a bad race, and in the process turning a fair-haired race into a swarthy or sallow-skinned race, applies more directly to LotR than to D&D.

Ideas about the divine creation of the races have sometimes been a hot topic in the real world. Judges in the USA have referred explicitly to their understanding of that process, in legal rulings affirming segregation and prohibiting inter-racial marriage, and I'll leave it at that.

It is also true that I could play both the "before" and "after" with a wig, or with suspension of disbelief. There are ongoing conversations about cross-race casting and cross-race cosplay. As Hussar has observed, those conversations include (and reveal) some strong disagreements in core values involving race. Here's a thought on that topic, from a different fantasy story involving race and prejudice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDCzeU1w93g
 

Riley37

First Post
My issue with this is you stated it as a request to me. It just made it sound like you thought I was at risk of doing that sort of thing. That is like me asking you to please not murder any children. Can you see how I would feel the need to weigh in defensively? I would never treat a player that way at my table.

Fair. I assumed you'd take my point: what we're asking for, doesn't require YOU to change. We talk more about the details and nuances, the background and the context, than you do. Perhaps we defy racism with intellect and you defy racism with intuition? Wizards versus clerics, but with the same alignment?

This is why I say I get you are coming from a very well intentioned place. I just don't think it leads us to a better place in the long run.

Can you see how I would feel the need to weigh in defensively? (Though that was to Hussar, not to me individually.)

Insofar as you're worried about call-out swarms, and public take-downs, and libraries pulling "Huck Finn" off the shelves: so am I. They'll have to take my copy of Kipling's "Kim" from my cold, dead hands. Danny said something similar. I don't think that's the *same* as what we're doing here.

I hear your warnings about not leading to a better place. I'm still standing by my story about how the illustrations on Players Handbook 5E, pages 70 and 112, helped a newcomer to D&D feel welcome, included, comfortable. (Perhaps even more welcome at the game store table, than elsewhere in his life.) Do we disagree on whether that story counts as an example of "a better place"?
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
The Brute racial caricature. An article by Dr. David Pilgrim, Professor of Sociology at Ferris State University.

“The brute caricature portrays black men as innately savage, animalistic, destructive, and criminal -- deserving punishment, maybe death. This brute is a fiend, a sociopath, an anti-social menace. Black brutes are depicted as hideous, terrifying predators who target helpless victims, especially white women. Charles H. Smith (1893), writing in the 1890s, claimed, ‘A bad negro is the most horrible creature upon the earth, the most brutal and merciless’ (p. 181). Clifton R. Breckinridge (1900), a contemporary of Smith's, said of the black race, ‘when it produces a brute, he is the worst and most insatiate brute that exists in human form’ (p. 174).

George T. Winston (1901), another ‘Negrophobic’ writer, claimed:
‘When a knock is heard at the door [a White woman] shudders with nameless horror. The black brute is lurking in the dark, a monstrous beast, crazed with lust. His ferocity is almost demoniacal. A mad bull or tiger could scarcely be more brutal. A whole community is frenzied with horror, with the blind and furious rage for vengeance.’ (pp. 108-109)”

5e D&D Monster Manual:
“Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks.”
“Luthic, the orc goddess of fertility and wife of Gruumsh, demands that orcs procreate often and indiscriminately… The orcs' drive to reproduce runs stronger than any other humanoid race, and they readily crossbreed with other races.”
“Orcs… satisfy their bloodlust by plundering villages, devouring or driving off roaming herds, and slaying any humanoids that stand against them.”
They possess a “lust for slaughter”.

4e D&D Monster Manual:
“Orcs… are savage, bloodthirsty marauders.”
“Orcs… delight in slaughter and destruction.”
 
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ccs

41st lv DM
So, you see absolutely no issue with the fact that I'd have to dye my hair to be considered "good" in a Tolkien universe? That without changing my appearance, there is no way I could be considered part of the best "good" race?

Really, you think that's not an issue?

Heh, I remember when that awful D&D movie came out and the elf was black and this was actually an issue. So, it's not like this is ancient history.

In general, nope.

If the Tolkien universe were a real place, & you were an elf in it, there wouldn't be an issue. Because you'd automatically come with fair hair and that's just how elves are there.

If you're talking about being in an RPG? Go talk it over with your DM.

If you're talking about being an actor who's unwilling to dress the part though?
{2 assumptions for our fictional Tolkien elf role here:
1 - Elves are fair haired & that'll be represented, including by your character,
2 - You were unable to negotiate any change to that}

Then even if yours was the best elf audition on the planet I'd have no problem with you being rejected.
 

Sadras

Legend
“The Brute” racial caricature. An article by Dr. David Pilgrim, Professor of Sociology at Ferris State University.

“The brute caricature portrays black men as innately savage, animalistic, destructive, and criminal -- deserving punishment, maybe death. This brute is a fiend, a sociopath, an anti-social menace. Black brutes are depicted as hideous, terrifying predators who target helpless victims, especially white women. Charles H. Smith (1893), writing in the 1890s, claimed, ‘A bad negro is the most horrible creature upon the earth, the most brutal and merciless’ (p. 181). Clifton R. Breckinridge (1900), a contemporary of Smith's, said of the black race, ‘when it produces a brute, he is the worst and most insatiate brute that exists in human form’ (p. 174).

George T. Winston (1901), another ‘Negrophobic’ writer, claimed:
‘When a knock is heard at the door [a White woman] shudders with nameless horror. The black brute is lurking in the dark, a monstrous beast, crazed with lust. His ferocity is almost demoniacal. A mad bull or tiger could scarcely be more brutal. A whole community is frenzied with horror, with the blind and furious rage for vengeance.’ (pp. 108-109)”

5e D&D Monster Manual:
“Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks.”
“Luthic, the orc goddess of fertility and wife of Gruumsh, demands that orcs procreate often and indiscriminately… The orcs' drive to reproduce runs stronger than any other humanoid race, and they readily crossbreed with other races.”
“Orcs… satisfy their bloodlust by plundering villages, devouring or driving off roaming herds, and slaying any humanoids that stand against them.”
They possess a “lust for slaughter”.

4e D&D Monster Manual:
“Orcs… are savage, bloodthirsty marauders.”
“Orcs… delight in slaughter and destruction.”

Essentially you're polluting younger generation's minds with these posts whereas before many players never made orc- RL black person association. Why the flowers would they?

Thanks, you're doing a swell job. Keep up the good work. Freedom of speech and all, so feel free to quote more vile passages.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Two quick observations:

Re Orcish fecundity: as a D&D race they generally have much shorter potential lifespans than most - never mind the many who never live to old age due to mishap and adventurers - and thus in order to preserve their numbers (and to generate lots of warriors) it only makes sense that they'd breed like rabbits relative to the longer-lived races.

Re the Washington NFL team: what are the odds of getting their name changed to the Washington Orcs?
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Essentially you're polluting younger generation's minds with these posts whereas before many players never made orc- RL black person association. Why the flowers would they?

Thanks, you're doing a swell job. Keep up the good work. Freedom of speech and all, so feel free to quote more vile passages.

Now watch, D&D playing will spike among Klan members! :rant:
 

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