Sneak Peek At Ghosts of Saltmarsh Maps

Hussar · Apr 16, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
Sure, here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?604938-I-draw-the-occasional-D-amp-D-map

/snip

LOL

Look at that thread you posted. Virtually every single map in that thread, nearly all of them, are oriented north to the top. Granted there's no compass rose on most of them, but, then again, lacking a compass rose, the presumption is always north to the top because that's the standard way maps are drawn.

Anyway, like I said, this has got to be the absolute weirdest conversation I've ever had on En World.

[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.

[MENTION=6855149]Prakriti[/MENTION] - WTF? Scary/foreign/unusual? Ooookay.

I'll note that not a single person here who is so adamant to prove me wrong has taken up my challenge. C'mon, let's see these examples of RPG books where the majority of maps are not north to the top. Should be easy peasy for smart folks like you. You seem to be so sure that north to the top isn't typical or usual, so, let's get those examples rolling in. It's easy to make unsubstantiated claims and whatnot. Time to pee or get off the pot. Give me a SINGLE example of an RPG product where the majority of the maps is not oriented north to the top.

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WaterRabbit · Apr 16, 2019

Hussar said:
LOL

Look at that thread you posted. Virtually every single map in that thread, nearly all of them, are oriented north to the top. Granted there's no compass rose on most of them, but, then again, lacking a compass rose, the presumption is always north to the top because that's the standard way maps are drawn.

Anyway, like I said, this has got to be the absolute weirdest conversation I've ever had on En World.

[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.

[MENTION=6855149]Prakriti[/MENTION] - WTF? Scary/foreign/unusual? Ooookay.

I'll note that not a single person here who is so adamant to prove me wrong has taken up my challenge.

It's not about proving anyone right or wrong (since clearly you are prone to exaggeration). It is that you are so adamant in your pendantry that it is redictulous.

Yes, lots of maps are oriented with North at "the top". However, lots of maps aren't. This "norm" you are so pedantic about is weird to anyone that studies history. Basically it shows how pervasive Google maps are and how some people are so easily manipulated into believing "THE TRUTH" instead of accepting that not ever convention works for every application. I would much prefer that map makers make best use of the medium and the space they have than conform to some arbitrary convention that is your personal hobgoblin.

A rosette is enough of an indicator.

Here are some ideas to chew on:

The biggest factors that contribute to north being commonly placed at the top of a map include the invention of the compass and the understanding of magnetic north and the egocentricity of society, mainly in Europe.

In the history of mapmaking, the general rule of thumb is whoever made the map is probably at the center or the top of it.

Many cartographers show what they want to be the focus at the top of the map, and, therefore, influence the orientation of the map.

Basically your north at the top bias is just that -- a personal bias.

Azzy · Apr 16, 2019

Hussar said:
[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.

Link? I'd have to scan the bloody things! If I even still had them—they're from the 80s. But, yeah, if you're so incredulous that they'd have maps of the U.S., Canada, Eutope, etc. fit the page rather than have North oriented to the top than go to a library where they may have some older atlases lying around and look at them.

Azzy · Apr 16, 2019

Hussar said:
[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.

Link? I'd have to scan the bloody things! If I even still had them—they're from the 80s. But, yeah, if you're so incredulous that they'd have maps of the U.S., Canada, Eutope, etc. fit the page rather than have North oriented to the top than go to a library where they may have some older atlases lying around and look at them.

smbakeresq · Apr 16, 2019

Try this book fellows, The World Through Maps, A History of Cartography:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the...=0ahUKEwj16f2f1tXhAhUJIKwKHcLCAkkQyNoBCJoBKAA

Hussar · Apr 16, 2019

So you folks read books printed on a Gutenberg press huh? The last three or four hundred years of map making apparently isn’t good enough to set the standard.

Did it used to be different? Sure. No argument. But, again, I’ll be waiting for your Rpg book examples. Still.

I mean if it’s so easy to find examples then show me. I’ll gladly eat crow. Heck the one link to maps so far was 100% wrong. Look at Dyson Logos’ patreon page and you’ll see that his maps are almost always oriented the standard way.

Are there exceptions? Sure. I never said there weren’t. But, there’s no denying that this is the standard.

smbakeresq · Apr 17, 2019

I love reading print books, I own several over 100+ years old. I don’t have a Gutenberg books, I can’t afford them.

As as standards, the vast majority have the rose oriented towards the top of the page with that being north. If a map covers 2 pages and the book is meant to be turned to view the map then it is oriented that way.

The creator of the map and his belief system control this however. It doesn’t really matter unless the orientation of the map itself is trying to tell you something about the beliefs of the creator.

smbakeresq · Apr 17, 2019

Look up Mike Schley to buy his maps from the website, I am glad I did for PoTA.

lkj · Apr 17, 2019

I am largely uninterested in the discussion of whether the orientation of a D&D needs to be north or not . I don't mind one way or the other. Other people do mind. Sort of sums the discussion for me.

But it did get me interested in the topic of why maps through history tended to be oriented as they were. I was fascinated to discover that many maps used to have east at the top. And how compasses led to the frequent modern north orientation (as others mentioned in this thread)

So I thought I'd share this interesting web page on the topic

https://geog.ucsb.edu/why-is-north-up-on-maps/

AD

Paul Farquhar · Apr 17, 2019

Hussar said:
LOL

Look at that thread you posted. Virtually every single map in that thread, nearly all of them, are oriented north to the top. Granted there's no compass rose on most of them, but, then again, lacking a compass rose, the presumption is always north to the top because that's the standard way maps are drawn.

No, they are shown without a compass rose so they can be used in whatever orientation the DM chooses - if it even matters.

The only person "presuming north is at the top" is you.

most

You keep changing your own argument. First you say "all", then you said "99%", and now you are saying "most". "Most" I agree with. Loose the hyperbole and your argument becomes much stronger.