D&D General If you could put D&D into any other non middle ages genre, what would it be?

Sacrosanct · Jun 17, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I don't even think it's over-simplified. It's a very particular approach to damage that has a lot of built in plot armor and very much represents the kinds of stories that inspired D&D in the first place. It's very pulpy, and it makes for very durable heroes. Is that super-realistic? Good heavens no, but it was never supposed to be. Lots of other systems have more 'realistic' damage systems. Even the HP system as written can be massaged in a number of more 'realistic' directions for a DM so inclined. However, that fact that the HP system as written ins't a hyper-realistic model of vaguely medieval combat damage isn't a flaw, it's a design choice, a design choice people can agree with or, and use or not.

People have been trying to make the HP system more realistic since the very beginning, with an article in Dragon about once a year. Introduce pain mechanics! Introduce lingering effects!

None of those ever stuck or even took a foothold. I think there's a reason for that.

Paul Farquhar · Jun 17, 2019

CapnZapp said:
If you offer firearms that increases people's expectations of lethal attacks.

If you focus on swords, that decreases people's expectations.

Rubbish. In Game of Thrones swords are extremely lethal. e.g. In series 1 a character is wounded by a single spear thrust in the leg and limps for the rest of the series (until it is cured by amputation, at the neck).

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Lone Ranger faces the Black Hat gang in a hail of hundreds of bullets.

It's tone, not genre, that determines the lethality of the setting.

ART! · Jun 17, 2019

I've always thought 4E would by far be the best structure of any edition from which to build a supers game.

The at-will, encounter, and daily powers structure suits how powers work dramatically in comics to a T.

Derren · Jun 17, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
However, that fact that the HP system as written ins't a hyper-realistic model of vaguely medieval combat damage isn't a flaw, it's a design choice, a design choice people can agree with or, and use or not.

Yes, and also a choice which makes D&D unsuitable for any setting with primarily ranged weapons, simply because D&D is written to support melee. Unless you play at 1st level or have super optimized characters it is impossible to kill enemies from range before they reach you and go into melee because of the short ranges and HP pool.

Just imagine another common western scenario, the wagon fort surrounded by native americans. In D&D western they would have no trouble to rush the people inside the forth with melee weapons, even if that takes 1-2 rounds and the entire scene would devolve into some strange gun-fu close combat shooting with the cowboys running circles inside the fort to shoot and the natives charging every round to hit them with tomahawks (*play yakety sax*).

Oofta · Jun 17, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I don't even think it's over-simplified. It's a very particular approach to damage that has a lot of built in plot armor and very much represents the kinds of stories that inspired D&D in the first place. It's very pulpy, and it makes for very durable heroes. Is that super-realistic? Good heavens no, but it was never supposed to be. Lots of other systems have more 'realistic' damage systems. Even the HP system as written can be massaged in a number of more 'realistic' directions for a DM so inclined. However, that fact that the HP system as written ins't a hyper-realistic model of vaguely medieval combat damage isn't a flaw, it's a design choice, a design choice people can agree with or, and use or not.

Anything remotely approaching reality would include disabilities, hindrances, bleeding out, infections, etc. We don't include those in many styles of games because it wouldn't be fun.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy D&D. For all it's flaws, HP works. I just think that many things have to be vastly simplified to work as a game. Whether that's HP or armor or weapons or ease of recovery or the turn based system.

Sacrosanct · Jun 17, 2019

Derren said:
Yes, and also a choice which makes D&D unsuitable for any setting with primarily ranged weapons, simply because D&D is written to support melee. Unless you play at 1st level or have super optimized characters it is impossible to kill enemies from range before they reach you and go into melee because of the short ranges and HP pool.

Just imagine another common western scenario, the wagon fort surrounded by native americans. In D&D western they would have no trouble to rush the people inside the forth with melee weapons, even if that takes 1-2 rounds and the entire scene would devolve into some strange gun-fu close combat shooting with the cowboys running circles inside the fort to shoot and the natives charging every round to hit them with tomahawks (*play yakety sax*).

If that's the standard you're using (kill the enemy quickly before they close in), then D&D sucks at melee combat and can't capture historical melee combat as well. Heck, even heroic movie melee combat. Look at something like LotR with how fast they mow through orcs. That's not possible in D&D. Or historical combat where a single weapon strike took out an enemy soldier.

Goes back to my double standard. Implying D&D works good for melee but not ranged when you're holding a different set of standards to each. D&D works the same for melee and ranged. It's just that with one, you're willing to have suspense of disbelief, but not the other.

Fanaelialae · Jun 17, 2019

Sacrosanct said:
If that's the standard you're using (kill the enemy quickly before they close in), then D&D sucks at melee combat and can't capture historical melee combat as well. Heck, even heroic movie melee combat. Look at something like LotR with how fast they mow through orcs. That's not possible in D&D. Or historical combat where a single weapon strike took out an enemy soldier.

Goes back to my double standard. Implying D&D works good for melee but not ranged when you're holding a different set of standards to each. D&D works the same for melee and ranged. It's just that with one, you're willing to have suspense of disbelief, but not the other.

Actually, while 5e chose not to carry it over from 4e, D&D can do this. Just implement the concept of minions and you're good to go.

The Crimson Binome · Jun 17, 2019

CapnZapp said:
In D&D, when a level 8 Fighter is attacked by a few goblins with shortswords, their effects are akin to being shot by nerf guns, that is to say, they're an inconvenience but hardly fatal.

Does anyone consider this a "mockery of shortswords"?

I do, and it's the primary reason why I can't play 5E unless something has been done to address the healing rules.

When a goblin stabs you for 5 damage out of your 80hp, that's perfectly fine with me, because you're a mighty hero and you're wearing armor. Most armor is pretty good about dulling the impact of a sword. I can buy that it takes 16 hits before you've been battered into submission.

The issue is when you wake up in the morning, and the wounds which would have killed a lesser mortal have vanished entirely. That is making a mockery of the weapon.

The Crimson Binome · Jun 17, 2019

Mercurius said:
If we're talking real world analogs, how about "Mythic Ancient World." The basic idea would be using creative license to combine various high points into Antiquity into one phase: Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Indus Valley, China, Norte Chico, all at a high point of civilization. Then you pepper in a mythic variety, so that demi-gods and heroes walk the land...so not as much Golden Age Greece as pre-Homeric "Age of Heroes" Greece.

Yes, I am also a fan of Xena.

* And Asterix.

Fenris-77 · Jun 17, 2019

D&D and firearms work fine until you circle back around to realistic damage. Most heroes in most action movies have a very D&D relationship with firearms. The bad guys don't, but that fits pretty well into D&D too. What D&D doesn't really do, not when you follow CR system anyway, and previous versions of the same, is deal with the concept of minions or henchmen, at least from a one-punch one-kill cinematic standpoint anyway. D&D can do that, but it takes an alternative approach to encounter design.

Put simply, if you want to play in a system where a single gunshot (or equivalent) can kill a player character, then D&D isn't the system for you. Personally, I don't really want to play in a system where a single common attack could ace my character at pretty much any time. That might be to some people's taste, and that's fine, but I like D&D for what it does going in the opposite direction. YMMV.