D&D General If you could put D&D into any other non middle ages genre, what would it be?

Tony Vargas · Jun 20, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Now you come across as someone unfamiliar with other role-playing designs than hit points and levels, but I'm sure that's not really the case.

Its precisely because I'm all too familiar with a variety of ways of modeling - and failing to model - plot armor, that I find the idea tweaking firearms to high-damage in D&D is a poor solution.

Meaning all of that is certainly not a defining feature of hit points, and in fact, a way to use hit points that is deeply unsatisfactory to many.

Hps are a model of plot armor, and a workable one. That's better than a lot of other, nor sophisticated systems have managed.
Yes, thinking of them as undifferentiated physical structure that must be abated is problematic unless you're talking golems and the like - so don't think of them that way.

How's that? Because with hit points you *know* the first stab or bullet is not going to reduce your fighting capability in any way.

The player does, the character is imagined as Not knowing it.

Not everybody is capable of feeling the excitement and (exaggerated) fear of death there.

That's a failure of imagination, but not an insurmountable one.

This is a major reason why other RPGs were invented.

Well, and Vancian casting, and a lot if other things D&D did ...oddly.

That is, to better model a scenario where each bullet could kill you (but not really, since you're a hero). But fundamentally, to replace hit points with Dodge tests, built in physical resistance, and relying much more on armor, cover and tactics.

There's a simple catch-22 there, if you design your plot-armor mechanic to 'feel' to the player like real danger, RPGs not being that opaque, it'll have to actually be that, and PC death will be too frequent for players to get into any one character.
As a designer, you have to trust players to have some imagination.

(And for the umpteenth time, not because D&D is bad, only because it's suited to another set of expectations on how a combat "should" go down)

Oh, it's bad, real bad, y'know it.
But, seriously, hps as plot armor are one of the less-bad bits.

Paul Farquhar · Jun 20, 2019

77IM said:
Pop quiz: When a wild-west gunslinger shoots an umber hulk, what should happen?

(I'm not directing this at any one person. I'm just trying to point out that the damage mechanic needs to encompass more than just "shootout at high noon." Also, as an aside, the protagonist, who is a PC, always wins the shootout at high noon, so attack and damage mechanics are already secondary to what's happening there.)

Easily answered if you look at Valley of Gwangi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Valley_of_Gwangi.

Monsters absorb lots and lots of bullets. Pretty much exactly like D&D.

Other examples of firearms vs monsters can be seen in the original King Kong, and films such as The Land that Time Forgot and Warlords of Atlantis.

CapnZapp · Jun 20, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Its precisely because I'm all too familiar with a variety of ways of modeling - and failing to model - plot armor, that I find the idea tweaking firearms to high-damage in D&D is a poor solution.

Agreed.

Hps are a model of plot armor, and a workable one. That's better than a lot of other, nor sophisticated systems have managed.

Yes, but now you've reduced the problem to plot armor only.

The crucial difference is whether the bullet has a zero or non-zero chance at ruining your day. That is, if the danger is immediate or postponed (until you've run out of hp).

More generally, is EVERY bullet a threat or just the last one?

The player does, the character is imagined as Not knowing it. That's a failure of imagination, but not an insurmountable one.

Well, about the only reason why were having this discussion and a large factor as to why games like Runequest and WFRP popped up, is precisely because players can't or won't do that!

There's a simple catch-22 there, if you design your plot-armor mechanic to 'feel' to the player like real danger, RPGs not being that opaque, it'll have to actually be that, and PC death will be too frequent for players to get into any one character.

I won't deny there is a design challenge there.

I dismiss the implied notion "since the problem is unsolvable, let's simply go with hit points" however.

But, seriously, hps as plot armor are one of the less-bad bits.

And equally seriously, that's a bit too simplistic to usefully analyse the situation imo...

CapnZapp · Jun 20, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
Monsters absorb lots and lots of bullets. Pretty much exactly like D&D.

This I agree to. When it comes to larger creatures, that takes the edge off the kill-shot notion.

Urriak · Jun 20, 2019

I really don't understand how this thread devolved into "How do bullets D&D?" There are literally Drow gunslingers in Dragon Heist, this already exists.

Oofta · Jun 20, 2019

Matthia05718273 said:
I really don't understand how this thread devolved into "How do bullets D&D?" There are literally Drow gunslingers in Dragon Heist, this already exists.

I agree, it's a silly argument. Because we're familiar with the damage bullets can do some people assume for some reason they're more deadly that traditional D&D weapons. Which is odd because in reality people get shot multiple times and survive. On TV, a throwing knife is deadly 99.9% of the time. Yet somehow having a couple of pounds of metal perforate your abdomen or lopping your head off isn't as deadly as a 9mm?

Kind of makes me want to play an old-west style game with a PC that can cast heat metal. To me the only question would be how long do you have to maintain it on a gun until it misfires. :hmm:

Tony Vargas · Jun 20, 2019

CapnZapp said:
The crucial difference is whether the bullet has a zero or non-zero chance at ruining your day. That is, if the danger is immediate or postponed (until you've run out of hp).
More generally, is EVERY bullet a threat or just the last one?

That's the thing, whatever plot armor mechanism you settle on, it'll either make only that last bullet a 'real threat' - or it'll fail as plot armor (at least some of the time, a "protagonist who shouldn't die at this point in the story," will).

Well, about the only reason why were having this discussion and a large factor as to why games like Runequest and WFRP popped up, is precisely because players can't or won't do that!

Meh. RQ, for instance, did scads of things differently from D&D, not just eschewing a plot armor mechanic. Armor absorbing damage, skill-based instead of class/level, completely different take on magic, etc, etc...

I won't deny there is a design challenge there.
I dismiss the implied notion "since the problem is unsolvable, let's simply go with hit points" however.

The 'problem' (emulating genre with a creaky old RPG mechanic) isn't insoluble, it's just not soluble by making firearms into instant-death wands, or treating hps as structural integrity units instead of plot armor (or something that can be a fig-leaf for plot armor, like 'luck,' which notoriously runs out).

Lanefan · Jun 21, 2019

CapnZapp said:
How's that? Because with hit points you *know* the first stab or bullet is not going to reduce your fighting capability in any way.

Unless you're using a 3e-like set of criticals cards with add-on effects; or unless your game has a specific-to-firearms rule that provokes some sort of save-or-suck (or die) if more than x points of damage (e.g. natural 5-6 on d6) is done by a single shot; or any other mechanic that allows you-as-DM to sometimes bypass h.p.

Not everybody is capable of feeling the excitement and (exaggerated) fear of death there.

Agreed, but as it's so trivially easy to houserule in some tweaks to make firearms scarier and-or deadlier I really don't see this as an unsolvable problem.

If all you know is D&D, it is very hard to see and appreciate this. Not that this applies to you. Right?

It largely applies to me, and even I could make firearms work in my game if I had to...not that I'd ever want to do this, mind you. But I could.

Eltab · Jun 21, 2019

- IRL history shows that plenty of melee weapons are just as deadly as guns.

- If you want one-hit-one-kill NPCs, that was a 4e Minion by definition.

- Personally, I want a PC who has more HP than a single weapon can deliver in one hit, so I can crawl behind cover after getting shot. The classic 1e Wizard with 1 HP, a Robe, a Dagger, and 1 Spell all day was not really much fun - or "Wizard-y" - to play.

CapnZapp · Jun 21, 2019

Oofta said:
I agree, it's a silly argument. Because we're familiar with the damage bullets can do some people assume for some reason they're more deadly that traditional D&D weapons.

I'm sure you realize things change if you somehow increase the range of your longswords to 100 ft...