5e invisibility and Detect Magic

Maxperson · Aug 30, 2018

smbakeresq said:
You are not carrying or wearing the flour when the spell is cast so it does not turn invisible, nor does anything you carry or put on after the spell is cast. You don’t transfer your invisibility to objects, nor does an object transfer it’s invisibility to you.

That isn't what the spell says. It says that anything you are wearing or carrying is invisible and fails to specify that only things worn or carried when cast are invisible. That means that things picked up or put on after the fact turn invisible. At least per RAW.

Maxperson · Aug 30, 2018

Oofta said:
Just because the hide action is one way of avoiding detection, that doesn't mean it's the only way. Another way would be to be in your house with the camera on your device turned off. I know you're somewhere, but not exactly where. Or do I?

This is from the Unseen Attackers and Targets section.

"If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

That bolded part means that if you are unseen and unheard, you are hidden regardless of whether or not you took the hide action. invisibility puts you halfway there. A silence spell, simply being a distance away and not moving, or however else you are unheard will cause you to be hidden if you are invisible.

MNblockhead · Aug 30, 2018

Dausuul said:
Since the golem's Stealth skill is a whopping -1, it is very likely to be detected (and its location pinpointed) whether it's hiding or not. You walk into the room and just know that there's an invisible golem in the corner.

"Invisible creature standing still" is one of the failure points of the stealth rules.

Again, I see invisibility as imperfect. There is still a slight distortion that perceptive creatures can detect. A distortion caused by a large, invisible column just standing against the wall would be easier to notice than an invisible gnome hiding behind a large urn.

Rather than change the way invisibility and hiding work, I would have a spell glyph that activates when you move within X feet of it and opens a door to a demiplane from out of which walks the golum.

Have the golumn in an alcove that is covered with a thin wall that is plastered over to look like the surrounding stone. The golumn smashes through the wall when someone comes nears.

Or use DM's discretion to apply advantage or disadvantage: give the silent, unmoving golumn advantage on the hide roll and/or impose disadvantage on the players to perceive it.

There are many ways to achieve the effect of a surprise golumn attack without changing the rules. But, of course, you *can* change the rules. I don't think that the current rules are stupid, but you can make invisibility work however you want in your game.

Oofta · Aug 30, 2018

MNblockhead said:
Again, I see invisibility as imperfect. There is still a slight distortion that perceptive creatures can detect. A distortion caused by a large, invisible column just standing against the wall would be easier to notice than an invisible gnome hiding behind a large urn.

Rather than change the way invisibility and hiding work, I would have a spell glyph that activates when you move within X feet of it and opens a door to a demiplane from out of which walks the golum.

Have the golumn in an alcove that is covered with a thin wall that is plastered over to look like the surrounding stone. The golumn smashes through the wall when someone comes nears.

Or use DM's discretion to apply advantage or disadvantage: give the silent, unmoving golumn advantage on the hide roll and/or impose disadvantage on the players to perceive it.

There are many ways to achieve the effect of a surprise golumn attack without changing the rules. But, of course, you *can* change the rules. I don't think that the current rules are stupid, but you can make invisibility work however you want in your game.

So Predator movie invisibility? That works too, and it's the way we explained it for 4E. I understand why you get there, I just don't see it in the rules. It's not wrong, just not the way I rule.

I don't see a reason that an invisible golem would be detectable as long as you don't bump into it and it doesn't move. Unless of course there's spider webs hanging off it. Or dust on the floor (and a light coating on the golem) or a shaft of light showing specks of dust floating through the air but not on the golem, or a fly bumping up against something unseen, or ... well you get the point.

Plaguescarred · Aug 30, 2018

smbakeresq said:
the invisibility condition states it would be impossible to see, since it isn't making noise (unless the DM says it is) and isn't moving (definition of the example.) I would treat it as an object, since it is a construct that wont move unless activated.

Creatures don't stop being one to instead become object because they're standing still and not moving.

In order to even try to mask your location and hide (it's usually about the only benefit barring some exceptions) you usually have to not be seen clearly; be it obscured, invisible or covered in some case like the halfling or the elf. So in a situation where an invisible or heavily obscured creature hiding would be detected, while the creature detecting it would now know it's location, it would still not be seen unless it also has a way to see through the heavy obscurement or invisibility.

Plaguescarred · Aug 30, 2018

Like [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] inferred, the DM can always make the invisible golem hidden with an unbeattable Stealth DC or simply determine that passive perception automatically fails for some reason.

I wish PCs would benefit from the same automatism as well though.

Oofta · Aug 30, 2018

Plaguescarred said:
Like [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] inferred, the DM can always make the invisible golem hidden with an unbeattable Stealth DC or simply determine that passive perception automatically fails for some reason.

I wish PCs would benefit from the same automatism as well though.

In my campaign they could. Of course they'd have to find a cooperative medusa to turn them into stone first and then turned invisible. :heh:

Or, I don't know. Be far enough away or in an environment that would mask any minor noises they might make. Not actively interacting with their environment in any visible way.

In order to be detected, there must be something that can be detected. I never assume a PC knows where every spider is because the spiders are small enough to be unseen in most cases and usually don't interact with the environment in a detectable way. Go out into your back yard with a blacklight when it's warm out and turn it on to see the hundreds of eyes looking back at you if you don't believe me.

Does that mean spiders are taking the hide action? Of course not. It's just that we don't notice them until they're crawling up your arm and you shriek like an 8 year old girl. Not that I've ever done that of course.

Plaguescarred · Aug 30, 2018

Oofta said:
In my campaign they could. Of course they'd have to find a cooperative medusa to turn them into stone first and then turned invisible.

Or, I don't know. Be far enough away or in an environment that would mask any minor noises they might make. Not actively interacting with their environment in any visible way.

In order to be detected, there must be something that can be detected. I never assume a PC knows where every spider is because the spiders are small enough to be unseen in most cases and usually don't interact with the environment in a detectable way. Go out into your back yard with a blacklight when it's warm out and turn it on to see the hundreds of eyes looking back at you if you don't believe me.

Does that mean spiders are taking the hide action? Of course not. It's just that we don't notice them until they're crawling up your arm and you shriek like an 8 year old girl. Not that I've ever done that of course.

Distance or size matters of course otherwise PCs would never be able to act, being constantly surprised by things they didn't detect!

Something so tiny that you won't interact with or too far simply aren't brought into existence in the course of the game. A DM doesn't go and describe everything, as little or as far it is in the world, he normally do so for things that are relevant in the game only. When it's the case, then the DM must determine if it's first detectable or not base of various circumstances, which fall on to rules on what you can see, and detect or know locations etc...

Pauper · Aug 30, 2018

UngeheuerLich said:
The flour should indeed become invisible. But if you make flour fog, there is now a big hole in it. Still disadvantage to hit, but no way the invisible creature can hide.

If we're playing TOON, sure -- poof! The room fills with "flour fog", which you can still inexplicably see through to find the 'hole'.

There's the problem -- if you have enough flour in the air to detect an invisible creature by where the flour isn't, the remaining flour in the air is likely thick enough to provide obscurement, meaning the invisible creature shouldn't be any less difficult than a non-invisible creature to find.

I mean, does nobody remember the peasant railgun back in Third Edition? That link contains one of my favorite D&D observations:

1d4chan said:
The only way this thing works is if:

1) Your GM allows for real world physics to translate into the game.

2) Your GM doesn't actually know real world physics.

--
Pauper

UngeheuerLich · Aug 30, 2018

Pauper said:
If we're playing TOON, sure -- poof! The room fills with "flour fog", which you can still inexplicably see through to find the 'hole'.

There's the problem -- if you have enough flour in the air to detect an invisible creature by where the flour isn't, the remaining flour in the air is likely thick enough to provide obscurement, meaning the invisible creature shouldn't be any less difficult than a non-invisible creature to find.

I mean, does nobody remember the peasant railgun back in Third Edition? That link contains one of my favorite D&D observations:

--
Pauper

Hmmh. Sounds a bit dismissive.
But yes, I did not experiment with flour and invisible creatures. But since you obviously did I should believe you. (No, also not how physics work.)

5e invisibility and Detect Magic

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site

Oofta

Legend

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012

Oofta

Legend

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.

UngeheuerLich

Legend

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