D&D 5E Prestige Classes
Istbor
Dances with Gnolls
Hiya!
Toe-may-to, toe-mah-ta, I guess. I'd say "Unfortunately, 3e changed all of that".
I see a Prestige Class as a "higher calling" type of thing. Something that a character would stick with his entire life once he is "in the club", so to speak. Now, I'm not adverse to having a PC give up on his PrC in an extreme situation (sort of like a priest loosing his faith and stepping down as Bishop or whatever). I may allow a PC to "drop" a PrC and go back to his old ways (class), but all the PrC stuff he got would be 'lost' (re: no special stuff). There would also likely be repercussions for leaving a PrC (the "Death Touched Warriors" may not take kindly to someone they sponsored, killed, raised from the dead, and taught the secrets of their order...). Skills learned I could let him keep maybe...have to figure out a way to work that back in. Shouldn't be too hard for skills, but no way would I let a "Death Touched Warrior" keep his Death Touch attack, go back to Fighter, and keep gaining levels as a Fighter with all the special stuff he gained in his PrC. As I said..."replacement, not additional".
The thing I hated most about 3.x/PF PrC's was the never ending treadmill of "+1UP" stuff. Just look at virtually ANY "non-single-class-build" characters for 3.x and you will see meticulously chosen Feat chains, level-dips galore and PrC choice(s) to match. Those characters are almost never built to enhance the campaign or anyone else's enjoyment at the table; they are there almost exclusively to inflate the ego's of the character "builder" and try and game/win the system.
I know my words are a bit harsh, but I really hate the way MC'ing and PrC's turned out in 3.x/PF. Really. Really really. And, from the look of it, 5e's designers seem to be heading down the same path, more or less. In my games, if you want to play an epic hero...you have to play as an epic hero. I don't let a player get away with just picking a certain character 'build'; that never ends well for the PC or the player. You, the player, have to attempt heroic deeds, say heroic things, and behave in a heroic manner. Just saying "I have AC 26 and 3 attacks that do 122 DPS!" is going to get you nowhere on the "NPC's look up to you as a hero" scale in my games. This all rolls into my PrC mentality. Just trying to gain mechanical stuff and slapping "Death Touched Warrior 1st" after your class level isn't happening. You have to work for it, in game, in character.
But that's me. As your quote above indicates...you seem to favor the mechanical fun of building to get some preconceived concept. Fair enough, to each his/her own.Enjoy what you want and have fun!
^_^
Paul L. Ming
I can certainly see some PrCs where you would need to strip some of the powers away should they stop following the path or betray the order. I can also see some where, that power/technique has been learned, and simply leaving the club wouldn't be enough to take that knowledge away.
For a lot of situations where a player betrays or leaves a group, ESPECIALLY a group they know you can only leave feet first, flavor and fluff happens. Now among a myriad of other dangers, bounty hunters and ex-guild mates gets added to the list of things trying to kill them. I don't see taking powers away arbitrarily nearly as fun as a whole organization trying to snuff you out to keep their knowledge a secret.
Then eventually a quest can be offered or taken to get this organization off of their back.
I don't care for the idea of Prestige Classes as mini-subclasses since there are so many other ways to incorporate "prestige" within the existing 5e framework. Feats, boons (from the DMG), and factions are capable of covering the spectrum of what generally amounts to a peculiar perk or VIP status. Tiered faction bonuses/benefits can be utilized when a small, progressive mechanical distinction exists between tiers of members. Higher concepts with a strong core theme and a long development path can be designed as new classes, or slotted in to existing classes as a subclasses, if applicable.
I do think the idea of "Prestige Class attunement" is interesting, though I'd imagine it'd ruffle the same feathers as those who dislike attunement for magic items since it's largely a metagame restriction.
I do think the idea of "Prestige Class attunement" is interesting, though I'd imagine it'd ruffle the same feathers as those who dislike attunement for magic items since it's largely a metagame restriction.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
[MENTION=6801670]Istbor[/MENTION], I can see what you are saying. I guess the old saying is in effect here: "I may not know what I like, but I do know what I don't like".
I get that 5e is a class-based system, and PrC's being "classes" (its in the name) is kind of locked into that overall system. But what I'd like to see with PrC's isn't so much 'classes', more than 'choices'. I'd like them to offer different choices for a character, mechanically speaking, and not just simply adding-on to the character. I want a PrC to be the defining aspect of the character...not just another set of abilities he/she has. I want the phrase "She is a 17th level Death Touched Warrior" to have instant meaning in game-terms...giving a overall 'package' of what the character can do, can't do and stands for (outlook on life, preferences for combat, social leaning, etc). I don't want the inclusion of a PrC to have the instant meaning of "Oh, so you can do necromantic damage when you hit. Got it". To me, the later is exactly what happens when someone takes a PrC as they are now; they aren't so much "interesting character choices and outlooks for roleplaying", as they are "new feats and abilities you can stack to be better".
Anyway...hard to explain. I guess what I'm saying is: Prestige Classes shouldn't be just another Class that has more buy-ins at the front, they should be "life-changing events/choices" for a character.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
[MENTION=6801670]Istbor[/MENTION], I can see what you are saying. I guess the old saying is in effect here: "I may not know what I like, but I do know what I don't like".
I get that 5e is a class-based system, and PrC's being "classes" (its in the name) is kind of locked into that overall system. But what I'd like to see with PrC's isn't so much 'classes', more than 'choices'. I'd like them to offer different choices for a character, mechanically speaking, and not just simply adding-on to the character. I want a PrC to be the defining aspect of the character...not just another set of abilities he/she has. I want the phrase "She is a 17th level Death Touched Warrior" to have instant meaning in game-terms...giving a overall 'package' of what the character can do, can't do and stands for (outlook on life, preferences for combat, social leaning, etc). I don't want the inclusion of a PrC to have the instant meaning of "Oh, so you can do necromantic damage when you hit. Got it". To me, the later is exactly what happens when someone takes a PrC as they are now; they aren't so much "interesting character choices and outlooks for roleplaying", as they are "new feats and abilities you can stack to be better".
Anyway...hard to explain. I guess what I'm saying is: Prestige Classes shouldn't be just another Class that has more buy-ins at the front, they should be "life-changing events/choices" for a character.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Istbor
Dances with Gnolls
Hiya!
[MENTION=6801670]Istbor[/MENTION], I can see what you are saying. I guess the old saying is in effect here: "I may not know what I like, but I do know what I don't like".
I get that 5e is a class-based system, and PrC's being "classes" (its in the name) is kind of locked into that overall system. But what I'd like to see with PrC's isn't so much 'classes', more than 'choices'. I'd like them to offer different choices for a character, mechanically speaking, and not just simply adding-on to the character. I want a PrC to be the defining aspect of the character...not just another set of abilities he/she has. I want the phrase "She is a 17th level Death Touched Warrior" to have instant meaning in game-terms...giving a overall 'package' of what the character can do, can't do and stands for (outlook on life, preferences for combat, social leaning, etc). I don't want the inclusion of a PrC to have the instant meaning of "Oh, so you can do necromantic damage when you hit. Got it". To me, the later is exactly what happens when someone takes a PrC as they are now; they aren't so much "interesting character choices and outlooks for roleplaying", as they are "new feats and abilities you can stack to be better".
Anyway...hard to explain. I guess what I'm saying is: Prestige Classes shouldn't be just another Class that has more buy-ins at the front, they should be "life-changing events/choices" for a character.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Alright, starting to see where you are coming from a little more. I think we actually agree on what a Prestige class should be. It should carry some heavier meaning that just a bundle of mechanics (if any). Instead as you say, impart some social standing and a map to where that character fits in the game world as well as maybe a quick notion of what you can expect from that character in terms of goals and actions.
Perhaps where we differ, and you can correct me if I am wrong, is the application of the Prestige class and consequences of removing the character from it.
Personally I agree, it should seem more like a choice. So if you choose to stop following Oath of the Shattered Blade and just go back to being Mrs. Fighter, I think you should be able to choose whether you want to keep what you learned or powers that may have been taught or bestowed onto you a secret, or abuse them in your new life outside the order. Instead of saying that all goes away.
Then again, perhaps we are actually on the same side of the issue and really ours is a disagreement of semantics.
Kite474
Explorer
Im gonna be very upfront. Totally ok with prestige classes being a bundle of mechanics. I really like the idea of "Attuning" to then like items though! Very novel Idea.
As for why I enjoy them as bundled mechanics. I always saw prestige classes as niche or alternative skill sets, much like classes actually! Was never a big on the Idea that you needed class levels for some order or position. To me it seemed to much of a burden to have to take time from the story just so you could light crap on fire differently.
I can definitely understand the opposing viewpoint and sympathize with it on some level though.
As for why I enjoy them as bundled mechanics. I always saw prestige classes as niche or alternative skill sets, much like classes actually! Was never a big on the Idea that you needed class levels for some order or position. To me it seemed to much of a burden to have to take time from the story just so you could light crap on fire differently.
I can definitely understand the opposing viewpoint and sympathize with it on some level though.
Hi, I dislike substitution levels; I find them finicky. I also think that some systems have done "prestige class"-like things rather well over the years. D&D4 did a great job with this, I think. The base class never went away, a second class got layered on top of levels 11-20 and a third class over levels 21-30. Powerful characters naturally have prestige and naturally are less generic, right? Many combinations were infelicitous, and the system had other issues (overall I disliked D&D4), but this implementation of prestige classes was clever, workable and configurable without being twitchy. Always at levels 11 and 21, always in blocks of 10. But "prestige classes" traces its lineage as far back as Glorantha, though in a limited way. You're an advanced character? Choose your hero quest. Ars Magica and White Wolf accomplished this in yet a different way, with all the "prestige classes" coming into being from the start. You're not just a werewolf, but you have a clan (tribe? whatever), a phase of the moon, and something else that eludes me. Some of the games only had one or two tweaks of this kind. GURPS has its archetypes and lenses, which can be layered as desired. The great thing about the OP's idea, for me, is that a single magic item isn't all that finicky, and a prestige class that is as good as a legendary magic item substitutes for that item very nicely. On the one hand, the prestige class cannot be destroyed or taken away; on the other hand, it comes with requirements and obligations. So the idea can be implemented quite easily by writing some fluff text and either choosing a few related magic items that scale from uncommon to legendary (such as Blood of the Jotan, at first providing Str 19 and going up until the blood of the storm giant is unleashed at high level), or taking a legendary item and attenuating its power at low levels (such as taking Staff of the Archmage and doling out the powers over time), or just rolling your own (such as the Buoy Scouts (not a misspelling!)) Having an exclusivity requirement at the highest level also helps balance in a way that makes plain sense; a character might be able to be a Buoy Scout, a Knight of the Round Table and a Master of Magic all at once, but the demands of being a Scoutmaster preclude being a Sovereign or an Archmage. Anyway, Ken
pming
Legend
Hiya!
I think we are just differing on semantics, primarily. However, the problem I see with being able to simply choose to keep a PrC learned ability is kind of the heart of my dislike for how PrC's were/are handled; that being there is absolutely nothing to stop a munchkin player from just gaming the system, as they love to do.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with different players liking different things in the game...including those who are in it mainly for the mechanical tinkering. I have one player (Zoltan...yeah, that's his real name...) is is about 70% "mechanics-oriented" for characters. He likes to see stuff on his sheet and be able to easily equate them to dice roll success chances. Thankfully, he also doesn't like being too "powerful" and will purposefully reign himself in when he sees his character getting a bit out of hand. We're all used to his play style and know exactly what to expect.
However... ...the problem did crop up constantly when we were playing our old PF game. That problem was all the time and effort that I, as DM, had to put into two things.
First was what we call the "Rifts Problem". You know... "So, what do you guys have in the party"..."A City Rat, a Ranger, a Ley Line Walker, a Glitter Boy, and a Dragon"..."Er....ok....uh...hmmm....". Basically, anything that was a challenge to him would wipe the rest of the party, and anything less was a cake walk for him. Power level variation was just too extreme.
Second, and this carries over to my point above, is the annoyance I got every now and then when I would spend time and effort developing interesting hooks, NPC's, rival orders, special lore, etc for his new PrC he just gained, and then, after his second level in it, he just drops it for some other class because he only wanted the power the PrC granted at it's second level. Now that he has it, he could care less about his PrC. It was just dead weight. The rival student? "Oh, yeah, ok Sandella. How about you stop dicking me around, I'll go to the guildmaster and tell him I resign, and that you should take my place. Cool?". What about that NPC villain who wants to kill/capture/corrupt the PC in order to settle some score with the Guild Master? "Oh, so, right...you aren't part of them anymore? Uh...ok. Sorry for the trouble then. No hard feelings, right? C'ya!". Or what about that map he found on the back of a painting in the guild hall? "Oh! Right! Totally forgot about that thing! Something to do with an old book the guildmaster wanted? Hmmm...well, if he ponies up 1,000gp maybe we can go get it for him...discount for being my old teacher".
In short, if you take away any repercussions from leaving a guild, then what's the point of trying to limit anything? In my humble opinion, if a PrC gives the PC a social advantage, leaving the PrC should nix that social advantage. Likewise if that PrC gives the PC a mechanical advantage, leaving that PrC should nix that mechanical advantage. Otherwise a PrC becomes nothing more than a name that houses restrictions to get some "kewl new powerz", and destroys utterly the entire point of a PrC; adding flavour and grounding to an ongoing campaign. All IMHO, of course.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
I think we are just differing on semantics, primarily. However, the problem I see with being able to simply choose to keep a PrC learned ability is kind of the heart of my dislike for how PrC's were/are handled; that being there is absolutely nothing to stop a munchkin player from just gaming the system, as they love to do.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with different players liking different things in the game...including those who are in it mainly for the mechanical tinkering. I have one player (Zoltan...yeah, that's his real name...) is is about 70% "mechanics-oriented" for characters. He likes to see stuff on his sheet and be able to easily equate them to dice roll success chances. Thankfully, he also doesn't like being too "powerful" and will purposefully reign himself in when he sees his character getting a bit out of hand. We're all used to his play style and know exactly what to expect.
However...
...the problem did crop up constantly when we were playing our old PF game. That problem was all the time and effort that I, as DM, had to put into two things.First was what we call the "Rifts Problem". You know... "So, what do you guys have in the party"..."A City Rat, a Ranger, a Ley Line Walker, a Glitter Boy, and a Dragon"..."Er....ok....uh...hmmm....". Basically, anything that was a challenge to him would wipe the rest of the party, and anything less was a cake walk for him. Power level variation was just too extreme.
Second, and this carries over to my point above, is the annoyance I got every now and then when I would spend time and effort developing interesting hooks, NPC's, rival orders, special lore, etc for his new PrC he just gained, and then, after his second level in it, he just drops it for some other class because he only wanted the power the PrC granted at it's second level. Now that he has it, he could care less about his PrC. It was just dead weight. The rival student? "Oh, yeah, ok Sandella. How about you stop dicking me around, I'll go to the guildmaster and tell him I resign, and that you should take my place. Cool?". What about that NPC villain who wants to kill/capture/corrupt the PC in order to settle some score with the Guild Master? "Oh, so, right...you aren't part of them anymore? Uh...ok. Sorry for the trouble then. No hard feelings, right? C'ya!". Or what about that map he found on the back of a painting in the guild hall? "Oh! Right! Totally forgot about that thing! Something to do with an old book the guildmaster wanted? Hmmm...well, if he ponies up 1,000gp maybe we can go get it for him...discount for being my old teacher".
In short, if you take away any repercussions from leaving a guild, then what's the point of trying to limit anything? In my humble opinion, if a PrC gives the PC a social advantage, leaving the PrC should nix that social advantage. Likewise if that PrC gives the PC a mechanical advantage, leaving that PrC should nix that mechanical advantage. Otherwise a PrC becomes nothing more than a name that houses restrictions to get some "kewl new powerz", and destroys utterly the entire point of a PrC; adding flavour and grounding to an ongoing campaign. All IMHO, of course.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Istbor
Dances with Gnolls
Hiya!
I think we are just differing on semantics, primarily. However, the problem I see with being able to simply choose to keep a PrC learned ability is kind of the heart of my dislike for how PrC's were/are handled; that being there is absolutely nothing to stop a munchkin player from just gaming the system, as they love to do.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with different players liking different things in the game...including those who are in it mainly for the mechanical tinkering. I have one player (Zoltan...yeah, that's his real name...) is is about 70% "mechanics-oriented" for characters. He likes to see stuff on his sheet and be able to easily equate them to dice roll success chances. Thankfully, he also doesn't like being too "powerful" and will purposefully reign himself in when he sees his character getting a bit out of hand. We're all used to his play style and know exactly what to expect.
However...
First was what we call the "Rifts Problem". You know... "So, what do you guys have in the party"..."A City Rat, a Ranger, a Ley Line Walker, a Glitter Boy, and a Dragon"..."Er....ok....uh...hmmm....". Basically, anything that was a challenge to him would wipe the rest of the party, and anything less was a cake walk for him. Power level variation was just too extreme.
Second, and this carries over to my point above, is the annoyance I got every now and then when I would spend time and effort developing interesting hooks, NPC's, rival orders, special lore, etc for his new PrC he just gained, and then, after his second level in it, he just drops it for some other class because he only wanted the power the PrC granted at it's second level. Now that he has it, he could care less about his PrC. It was just dead weight. The rival student? "Oh, yeah, ok Sandella. How about you stop dicking me around, I'll go to the guildmaster and tell him I resign, and that you should take my place. Cool?". What about that NPC villain who wants to kill/capture/corrupt the PC in order to settle some score with the Guild Master? "Oh, so, right...you aren't part of them anymore? Uh...ok. Sorry for the trouble then. No hard feelings, right? C'ya!". Or what about that map he found on the back of a painting in the guild hall? "Oh! Right! Totally forgot about that thing! Something to do with an old book the guildmaster wanted? Hmmm...well, if he ponies up 1,000gp maybe we can go get it for him...discount for being my old teacher".
In short, if you take away any repercussions from leaving a guild, then what's the point of trying to limit anything? In my humble opinion, if a PrC gives the PC a social advantage, leaving the PrC should nix that social advantage. Likewise if that PrC gives the PC a mechanical advantage, leaving that PrC should nix that mechanical advantage. Otherwise a PrC becomes nothing more than a name that houses restrictions to get some "kewl new powerz", and destroys utterly the entire point of a PrC; adding flavour and grounding to an ongoing campaign. All IMHO, of course.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Oh no, I am certainly not talking about taking away repercussions. In fact I am fine with them escalating. You quick this guild that another rival guild is trying to wipe out? Guess what? To them you still hold knowledge and secrets that they want or want to destroy. Before, you had an organization to fall back on, now, you have this other order AND the guys who used to have your back.
It then becomes a big choice for the character/player in the game world. "Do I use this knowledge/power/influence that will peg me as a member of the Southern Cross, or do I keep a low profile in hopes of not attracting hunters or assassins.
Heck maybe word gets around, and guilds stop inducting the character since they are a known hopper? If they put something extra on the line or as collateral or even some test to prove they mean it 'this time'.
I think some fun can be had with it in that sense. So long as the player gets enjoyment out of the complexity they have created for their character that is.
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