Is it jsut me or is everyone just jaded?

Janx · Aug 26, 2015

Crothian said:
Both of those might suffer from when they get to the answers. Shows like Lost and Heroes also came out with neat ideas but when they had to bring answers they failed either in trying to or ignoring them. Right now they are just potential and with luck they will live up to that potential.

A big problem with Lost and BSG is that the writers basically said "it's all about the characters"

Which was good for writing great characters.

But bad for writing a mystery that gets solved because they admit they were making it up all along (especially the BSG writers).

Mallus · Aug 26, 2015

Crothian said:
Both of those might suffer from when they get to the answers. Shows like Lost and Heroes also came out with neat ideas but when they had to bring answers they failed either in trying to or ignoring them. Right now they are just potential and with luck they will live up to that potential.

I think the risk for Sense8 is different. It certainly looks like a mystery show a la Lost in the beginning of the first episode, but it almost immediately pulls back from that and puts the focus on the "mundane" lives of its (large) cast of characters. Note that I put scare quotes around mundane because the 8 main characters don't actually lead normal lives, they're the stars of 8 different genre pieces: Sun lives in a South Korean TV drama that could be called "Fight Club Business Lady" -- I think it runs after "Vampire Prosecutor" -- Capheus lives in a Nollywood Van Damme homage, Lito in a 21st telenovella sex farce version of "Threes Company", Kala in a Bollywood romcom with dark political overtones, and so on.

These individual dramas drive the show, not the science fiction thriller-mystery angle. And the show was most successful in the character moments found in their "normal" lives (despite some incredible set-pieces where they do use their "powers").

My concern is the longer the show runs, the more the "mystery" will take center stage and possible occlude all the great character stuff. The creators have, so far, done a great job at communicating what the show's about, and the way it works through its themes is masterful. I hope that doesn't change as it get more plot-y, as the thriller & mystery take up more screen time.

Umbran · Aug 26, 2015

Mallus said:
My concern is the longer the show runs, the more the "mystery" will take center stage and possible occlude all the great character stuff. The creators have, so far, done a great job at communicating what the show's about, and the way it works through its themes is masterful. I hope that doesn't change as it get more plot-y, as the thriller & mystery take up more screen time.

If Babylon 5 is a measure, at least one of the creators has some facility at maintaining character focus in the midst of major plot arc - Londo and G'Kar are good examples, I think, of where this can go.

Oh, and JMS is *also* known for having his end-game planned before he begins. I would not expect Sense8 to suffer from "we were just making it up as it went along", when one of the creators had the first 5-season plotted arc in genre TV.

Janx · Aug 27, 2015

Umbran said:
If Babylon 5 is a measure, at least one of the creators has some facility at maintaining character focus in the midst of major plot arc - Londo and G'Kar are good examples, I think, of where this can go.

Oh, and JMS is *also* known for having his end-game planned before he begins. I would not expect Sense8 to suffer from "we were just making it up as it went along", when one of the creators had the first 5-season plotted arc in genre TV.

I concur. I've only see a few episodes of Sense8, but if JMS is behind it, I am reasonably confident that he has a plan to take it somewhere.

It won't be a case of killing off a character because their story arc is through (typical of Lost and Walking Dead).

I would imagine, as a professional, he recognizes what was great about Lost and BSG and why the meandering willy nilly over a mystery that was made up as they went along was bad. Heck, in his mind, he likely thinks "that's why I made B5 have a 5 year planned arc to avoid that problem"

I suspect this was the problem with Twin Peaks as well. Another great character show, that in the end, made it up as they went along with regards to the mystery

Mallus · Aug 27, 2015

Umbran said:
If Babylon 5 is a measure, at least one of the creators has some facility at maintaining character focus in the midst of major plot arc - Londo and G'Kar are good examples, I think, of where this can go.

Good point. Londo and G'Kar are some of SF's best characters and they both changed enormously during the run of the show in a believable way.

Oh, and JMS is *also* known for having his end-game planned before he begins. I would not expect Sense8 to suffer from "we were just making it up as it went along", when one of the creators had the first 5-season plotted arc in genre TV.

JMS has said in interviews he's got a 5-year plan mapped out for Sense8. Here's hoping they get the chance to see it through.

Janx · Aug 27, 2015

Mallus said:
Good point. Londo and G'Kar are some of SF's best characters and they both changed enormously during the run of the show in a believable way.

JMS has said in interviews he's got a 5-year plan mapped out for Sense8. Here's hoping they get the chance to see it through.

And to bring this back to topic....

Shows like Lost or BSG were great, except for their making it up part that ended up going in stupid directions. Other shows did this in even worse fashion.

As a result, I know that has made me wary of shows that hint of this lack of planning problem. Thus adding to that jaded feeling.

Ryujin · Aug 27, 2015

Janx said:
And to bring this back to topic....

Shows like Lost or BSG were great, except for their making it up part that ended up going in stupid directions. Other shows did this in even worse fashion.

As a result, I know that has made me wary of shows that hint of this lack of planning problem. Thus adding to that jaded feeling.

I think that the problems come in when production takes a turn, perhaps due to a cancellation or forced early ending, and they have to scramble to try and wrap things up. "Lost", in particular, suffered from a bit of a yo-yo in that department.

With "Babylon 5" JMS had his problems fairly early on, with what seemed to be an actor who saw that he was integral to the storyline, and perhaps desided that he wanted far more money than his talent warranted. The recovery from that was pretty good. Perhaps Harlan Ellison had something to do with that. He freely admits that he's got a massive ego, but it's almost warranted.

Umbran · Aug 28, 2015

Ryujin said:
With "Babylon 5" JMS had his problems fairly early on, with what seemed to be an actor who saw that he was integral to the storyline, and perhaps desided that he wanted far more money than his talent warranted.

You speaking of Michael O'Hare, who played Commander Jeffrey Sinclair? No, that's not what happened. He suffered from mental illness, and had to leave the show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_O'Hare#Illness
"As Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski describes it, during the filming of the first season of Babylon 5, O'Hare began having paranoid delusions. Halfway through filming, his hallucinations worsened. It became increasingly difficult for O'Hare to continue work, his behavior was becoming increasingly erratic and he was often at odds with his colleagues. O'Hare sought treatment for his mental illness, but feared that, as the main character of Babylon 5, taking an extended medical leave of absence would destroy the show just as it was getting off the ground.

Straczynski offered to suspend the show for several months to accommodate O'Hare's treatment for his mental health; however O'Hare refused to put so many other people's jobs at risk. Straczynski agreed to keep his condition secret to protect O'Hare's career. O'Hare agreed to complete the first season but would be written out of the second season so that he could seek treatment. He reappeared in a cameo appearance early in season two and returned in season three for the double episode "War Without End", which closed his character's story arc. He made no further appearances on Babylon 5.

Although his treatments were somewhat successful, he was never fully cured. Upon O'Hare's return to Babylon 5, Straczynski promised again that he would keep his condition secret to his grave. O'Hare told him to "keep the secret to my grave", pointing out that fans deserved to eventually learn the real reason for his departure and that his experience could raise awareness and understanding for people suffering from mental illness. On May 25, 2013, eight months after O'Hare's death, Straczynski fulfilled his promise and finally revealed the reasons behind O'Hare's departure from Babylon 5 at the Phoenix Comicon"

If you want to hear it from JMS himself:
http://www.blastr.com/2013-5-28/straczynski-reveals-moving-story-why-michael-ohare-left-babylon-5

Ryujin · Aug 28, 2015

Umbran said:
You speaking of Michael O'Hare, who played Commander Jeffrey Sinclair? No, that's not what happened. He suffered from mental illness, and had to leave the show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_O'Hare#Illness
"As Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski describes it, during the filming of the first season of Babylon 5, O'Hare began having paranoid delusions. Halfway through filming, his hallucinations worsened. It became increasingly difficult for O'Hare to continue work, his behavior was becoming increasingly erratic and he was often at odds with his colleagues. O'Hare sought treatment for his mental illness, but feared that, as the main character of Babylon 5, taking an extended medical leave of absence would destroy the show just as it was getting off the ground.

Straczynski offered to suspend the show for several months to accommodate O'Hare's treatment for his mental health; however O'Hare refused to put so many other people's jobs at risk. Straczynski agreed to keep his condition secret to protect O'Hare's career. O'Hare agreed to complete the first season but would be written out of the second season so that he could seek treatment. He reappeared in a cameo appearance early in season two and returned in season three for the double episode "War Without End", which closed his character's story arc. He made no further appearances on Babylon 5.

Although his treatments were somewhat successful, he was never fully cured. Upon O'Hare's return to Babylon 5, Straczynski promised again that he would keep his condition secret to his grave. O'Hare told him to "keep the secret to my grave", pointing out that fans deserved to eventually learn the real reason for his departure and that his experience could raise awareness and understanding for people suffering from mental illness. On May 25, 2013, eight months after O'Hare's death, Straczynski fulfilled his promise and finally revealed the reasons behind O'Hare's departure from Babylon 5 at the Phoenix Comicon"

If you want to hear it from JMS himself:
http://www.blastr.com/2013-5-28/straczynski-reveals-moving-story-why-michael-ohare-left-babylon-5

Very interesting. It also explains why I hadn't heard about it. The lack of information certainly gave a different impression of the situation.

Umbran · Aug 28, 2015

Ryujin said:
Very interesting. It also explains why I hadn't heard about it. The lack of information certainly gave a different impression of the situation.

Yah. It was still better for O'Hare to have the ambiguity and allow people to question his reasons, than to make it public. Mental health stigma was (and still is) pretty strong.