Converting Epic Level Creatures

Cleon · Jan 19, 2013

freyar said:
I just see nothing in the original text that directly says he can't be imprisoned --- there's no reason that the word "imprisoned" in the adventure is somehow more metaphorical than the "slumber" is. And I also don't see anything that suggests he should have such a powerful ability. His father, maybe, but that's not who we're designing here.

Well I mainly though he needs some Epic Abilities as he's an Epic Level Creature, and making him very hard to imprison would be a good fit. If we make it a time-limited ability like my last proposal it's not really that powerful from the PCs' perspective - if they use imprisonment on him and he pops out of the ground a few decades later they might not even know.

More to the point, I think it's a cool power and he should keep it.

freyar · Jan 21, 2013

He's epic, but he shouldn't be more epic than a demon lord or arch-devil. I also think the time-limiting business doesn't work with the adventure, since he should have popped out of his sealed room long ago (even if he were separately sleeping). And, directly to the point, the imprisonment spell is almost exactly what happened to him in the history of the adventure --- he was trapped underground (at least I think it's a dungeon) in suspended animation (enchanted slumber). And it's quite likely that the wizards/sorcerers/magic users who imprisoned him didn't included 17th level casters, so they had to work very hard as a unit to figure out how to cast such a powerful spell. Or something.

I think we may have reached an impasse and need a 3rd party to settle this. [MENTION=83645]Nookie[/MENTION]? [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION]? [MENTION=31666]GrayLinnorm[/MENTION]? Bueller? Anybody?

Echohawk · Jan 22, 2013

I've pulled Dragon #46 off the shelf to take a closer look at Ythog-Nthlei. Am I correct in assuming that it is his Aspect that is being statted up here?

Echohawk · Jan 22, 2013

Okay, I've read through The Temple of Poseidon, and now feel slightly more qualified to comment on this thread.

Some thoughts:

It did not take the brotherhood 200 years to imprison Ythog-Nthlei. The text says: "For over 200 years our brotherhood of magicians has struggled to prevent these sons of the old ones from releasing their horrible sires." To me, this implies that the brotherhood dealt with a number of sons of the old ones, and not just Ythog-Nthlei. This is supported by the text for room 20, which says "...we, the remaining children of the Great Lord Ythog-Nthlei do hereby register and sanctify this, our Holy Base. From these divine depths we shall build and grow until we have enough strength to release our Father, Zoth Ommog, from his imprisonment beyond the curtain of time." I take these two bits of text together as meaning that Zoth Ommog (one of the old ones) is the father of Ythog-Nthlei, who in turn sired other creatures.
The adventure is intended for "seven to ten characters of mixed class [...] with a combined total of at least 70 levels". While this implies that Ythog-Nthlei is intended to be a significant threat, I'm not sold on him/her/it being anywhere close to as powerful as a demon lord or arch-devil. I'd probably peg Ythog-Nthlei at the lower end of the epic scale. (Compare this to Gygax's recommendation for G3 of a party whose "average level is 9th" with "8 to 10 in the party", where the most significant opponent is King Snurre, and not even a demon lord or arch-devil.)
I'm not seeing any justification in the adventure for making Ythog-Nthlei unimprisonable. Quite the contrary actually, since his father (Zoth Ommog) is explicitly described as being imprisoned beyond the curtain of time. If Zoth Ommog can be imprisoned, then Ythog-Nthlei certainly can be. Plus, of course, Ythog-Nthlei is, in fact, imprisoned in Room 22!

freyar · Jan 22, 2013

Thanks, Echohawk! A very scholarly reading of the text there.

So, Cleon, can you concede on this one? We're still giving him some pretty cool abilities.

Cleon · Jan 26, 2013

freyar said:
Thanks, Echohawk! A very scholarly reading of the text there.

You're only saying that because he agrees with you.

freyar said:
So, Cleon, can you concede on this one? We're still giving him some pretty cool abilities.

Regarding the level issues, even if the ancient order of wizards never gained a 17th-level caster among their numbers despite 200 years of adventuring, under the 3E RAW they could simply buy a few high-level scrolls of imprisonment, trap the soul or whatever.

As for the original adventure's recommended levels, I thought we'd settled that this would be an Epic Version of the Dark King way back at the start of this conversion. The Ythog-Nthlei in Dragon #46 would probably come out as something like a CR 14-16 creature, based on its 26 HD and lack of explicit SLAs, but I thought we were aiming for a CR somewhere in the low 20s.

Anyhow, I was mulling over the best way of breaking this impasse, 'cause I had a feeling Freyar and I may never agree on it, and came up with the idea of moving the contentious SAs to a underbar and leaving it to the individual DMs to decide whether or not to use them.

e.g., we cut the "interact with transdimensional targets" stuff from Beyond Time and Space and make it a separate SQ, then make Beyond Death and Beyond Time and Space optional SQs.

Something like the following. Note that I tweaked Beyond Death a little so he can be killed by beings with a divine rank:

Beyond This Plane (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei can attack incorporeal and out-of-phase targets without penalty and ignores the effects of blink or displacement powers. He sees all adjacent dimensions clearly, including the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and the interiors of extradimensional spaces such as a rope trick, maze or portable hole.

Transcendental Ythog-Nthlei
Those sages who know of the Dark King have long speculated why the ancient mages who defeated him put the Old One in an enchanted slumber and imprisoned him bodily within his temple when they could have destroyed him with a sphere of annihilation or permanently trapped him with imprisonment, trap the soul or a similar spell. Some of these scholars came to the conclusion that Ythog-Nthlei proved impossible to trap or destroy, so placing him in an endless sleep was the best option.

If you wish this to be the case with Ythog-Nthlei, add one or both of the following special qualities:

Beyond Death (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei can not be killed by any mortal power, it takes a deity with a divine rank to slay him. If brought to -10 hit points by a nondivine attacker, Ythog-Nthlei's body melts away, leaving nothing but an unspeakable stain, but he will reappear at some later time or on some other plane without suffering any penalties for having died. He reappears even if the Dark King's body and spirit are annihilated. The time-delay and distance of Ythog-Nthlei's reappearance after death is at the DM's discretion, but may be considerable (e.g. 1d100 years later on the spot he died, or immediately on the lowermost layer of the Abyss).

Any effect that permanently incapacitates Ythog-Nthlei or renders him helpless for more than a month (petrification, being ability drained to Wisdom 0 or Dexterity 0, long-term paralysis, polymorphing into a non-combative form, et cetera) is considered to have "killed" him and triggers his rebirth. Note that sleep effects do not trigger Beyond Death.

Beyond Time and Space (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei transcends spatial and temporal limitations. Any effect that would trap Ythog-Nthlei in time or space, such as temporal stasis, trap the soul, imprisonment, or a wish to banish him to another plane will only last for 1d100 days, after which Ythog-Nthlei reappears as if by greater teleport or plane shift.

Finally, if any creature uses time stop within 150 feet of Ythog-Nthlei he can attempt to interrupt the time stop as a free action. If Ythog-Nthlei succeeds at a Will save against the DC of the time stop, he can choose to have the time stop fail or actually enter the time stop with the other creature. If Ythog-Nthlei and another creature share a time stop they can target each other attacks or spells as if they were both in normal time, but creatures outside the time stop are invulnerable to their attacks and spells.

This ability does not hinder Ythog-Nthlei using time- or space-manipulation powers on himself.

Would that be OK?

Echohawk · Jan 26, 2013

Cleon said:
Regarding the level issues, even if the ancient order of wizards never gained a 17th-level caster among their numbers despite 200 years of adventuring, under the 3E RAW they could simply buy a few high-level scrolls of imprisonment, trap the soul or whatever.

For all we know, the ancient order of wizards used up almost all of their resources dealing with Ythog-Nthlei's brethren over the preceding 200 years, and by the time they reached the last of the "sons of the old ones", there were so few of them left, and their spells/scrolls so nearly exhausted that all they could manage to do was seal Ythog-Nthlei in this dungeon.

Who knows exactly what happened? My point is that I'm not sure that such speculation is terribly helpful for the purposes of a conversion!

As for the original adventure's recommended levels, I thought we'd settled that this would be an Epic Version of the Dark King way back at the start of this conversion. The Ythog-Nthlei in Dragon #46 would probably come out as something like a CR 14-16 creature, based on its 26 HD and lack of explicit SLAs, but I thought we were aiming for a CR somewhere in the low 20s.

I feel vaguely guilty disagreeing with that decision given that I haven't been involved in this conversion at all until Freyar cast that summoning spell a few posts back. But only vaguely, and I do disagree with it

The whole purpose of the Creature Catalog -- at least as I understand it -- is to present 3rd edition conversions of creatures from earlier editions. In my mind, that means that as a general rule, the conversions should try to stick relatively closely to the original creature, and not present versions of old creatures which are radically more powerful than, or substantially different to, the originals. Otherwise they are not really conversions.

I don't have a problem with the "Beyond Time and Space" ability, or with very powerful epic-level creatures. My campaigns have historically tended towards quite high-level play, and this version of Ythog-Nthlei would be a handy addition for that sort of campaign.

But it seems to me that it is already quite a stretch of the Creature Catalog's original intent to present an epic-level Ythog-Nthlei as a "conversion" of the one in Dragon #46. I think that adding an additional side-bar with abilities which make Ythog-Nthlei even more powerful stretches the nature of a "conversion" so far that I'd be inclined to say it no longer belongs in the Creature Catalog, and should instead be something for homebrews.

Sure, it doesn't hurt to give a DM extra options. Speaking personally, I think I'd be more likely to use an unimprisonable epic-level Ythog-Nthlei than a CR 14-16 version. But does that mean I think that the more powerful version really belongs in the Creature Catalog? No, I'm afraid not.

Sorry Cleon -- I hope that doesn't come across as too deflating a reply. I really dig your creative monster design, but I'm afraid that I'm a bit more of a purist when it comes to conversions of older creatures.

Cleon · Jan 27, 2013

Echohawk said:
Sure, it doesn't hurt to give a DM extra options. Speaking personally, I think I'd be more likely to use an unimprisonable epic-level Ythog-Nthlei than a CR 14-16 version. But does that mean I think that the more powerful version really belongs in the Creature Catalog? No, I'm afraid not.

Sorry Cleon -- I hope that doesn't come across as too deflating a reply. I really dig your creative monster design, but I'm afraid that I'm a bit more of a purist when it comes to conversions of older creatures.

That's all right Echohawk, normally I like to keep conversions pretty true to the power level of the original creature too, but we have been showing a tendency to power up the Epic Level creatures - have you seen what we've done to the Hawk Lord?

If they'd put this beastie on the "Converting monsters from Dragon magazine" list I'd have been fine aiming for a CR 16 or so creature and not bothering with the extra pizzazz of eldritch transcendental powers, but as an Epic Threat I think he needed to be more than a big mass of hit points with an energy draining mace.

Nookie · Jan 28, 2013

Echohawk said:
For all we know, the ancient order of wizards used up almost all of their resources dealing with Ythog-Nthlei's brethren over the preceding 200 years, and by the time they reached the last of the "sons of the old ones", there were so few of them left, and their spells/scrolls so nearly exhausted that all they could manage to do was seal Ythog-Nthlei in this dungeon.

Who knows exactly what happened? My point is that I'm not sure that such speculation is terribly helpful for the purposes of a conversion!

I feel vaguely guilty disagreeing with that decision given that I haven't been involved in this conversion at all until Freyar cast that summoning spell a few posts back. But only vaguely, and I do disagree with it

The whole purpose of the Creature Catalog -- at least as I understand it -- is to present 3rd edition conversions of creatures from earlier editions. In my mind, that means that as a general rule, the conversions should try to stick relatively closely to the original creature, and not present versions of old creatures which are radically more powerful than, or substantially different to, the originals. Otherwise they are not really conversions.

I don't have a problem with the "Beyond Time and Space" ability, or with very powerful epic-level creatures. My campaigns have historically tended towards quite high-level play, and this version of Ythog-Nthlei would be a handy addition for that sort of campaign.

But it seems to me that it is already quite a stretch of the Creature Catalog's original intent to present an epic-level Ythog-Nthlei as a "conversion" of the one in Dragon #46. I think that adding an additional side-bar with abilities which make Ythog-Nthlei even more powerful stretches the nature of a "conversion" so far that I'd be inclined to say it no longer belongs in the Creature Catalog, and should instead be something for homebrews.

Sure, it doesn't hurt to give a DM extra options. Speaking personally, I think I'd be more likely to use an unimprisonable epic-level Ythog-Nthlei than a CR 14-16 version. But does that mean I think that the more powerful version really belongs in the Creature Catalog? No, I'm afraid not.

Sorry Cleon -- I hope that doesn't come across as too deflating a reply. I really dig your creative monster design, but I'm afraid that I'm a bit more of a purist when it comes to conversions of older creatures.

Well some 1e demonlords had as low as 70-100 HP and were bumped up quite a bit in 3E. i think Ythog was meant to be a similarly powerful creature so using the already existing demonlords and Dukes as models than he should be in the lower 20's cr range i think right around where were estimating.

Cleon · Jan 28, 2013

Nookie said:
Well some 1e demonlords had as low as 70-100 HP and were bumped up quite a bit in 3E. i think Ythog was meant to be a similarly powerful creature so using the already existing demonlords and Dukes as models than he should be in the lower 20's cr range i think right around where were estimating.

Yes, there's a lot of early-edition unique D&D monsters that have big power jumps as they went through editions.

Consider Zargon - started out a 12 HD 80 hp monster in B4 The Lost City who's only special power is very slow regeneration, ended up a 18 HD 342 hp epic threat in 3E D&D Elder Evils with a fistful of powers that includes regeneration 50, spell resistance 28, SLAs, true seeing, epic DR, and the ability to prevent spellcasters from regaining divine magic within a 100 mile radius.

Anyhow, where do you stand on the Beyond Death and Beyond Time and Space questions? Would you be OK leaving it in as a DM's option as suggested, or cutting it out from the Enworld version (which'll invariably mean it'll turn up in a Cleon Special™...)

Converting Epic Level Creatures

Cleon

Legend

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer

Echohawk

Shirokinukatsukami fan

Echohawk

Shirokinukatsukami fan

freyar

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Cleon

Legend

Echohawk

Shirokinukatsukami fan

Cleon

Legend

Nookie

Explorer

Cleon

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