D&D 4E A gathering of Martial Controllers - what do you think

Tony Vargas said:

Secondary roles are fine, of course.

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You suggested having a small unit of men for volleys and such to aid the controller role (that seems it would utterly dominate the build), but I was thinking more of knocking the leader angle to secondary by replacing this primary leader power with something less potent and changing other presences and such to ones which enhance other controllerish abilities akin to the Mages enchanter abilities.

I was considering something along the lines of a last second warning encounter power.

Last Second Warning :
While you are less about inspiring allies than other Warlords you never the less are eminently aware of enemy actions and keeping allies aware and hale is very much an advantage to the team.

Trigger ally within 10 squares would be hit by an enemy attack.
Free Action: Ally gains benefit as though the Warlord performed an aid defense action; This may be selected after damage has been rolled for.

While it still has a leader cast to it, I think this would be more subdued.

Garthanos said:

You suggested having a small unit of men for volleys and such to aid the controller role (that seems it would utterly dominate the build),

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Yeah, I suppose it might. It'd make a very minion-sweeping-focused controller.

but I was thinking more of knocking the leader angle to secondary by replacing this primary leader power with something less potent and changing other presences and such to ones which enhance other controllerish abilities akin to the Mages enchanter abilities.
I was considering something along the lines of a last second warning encounter power.
Last Second Warning :
Trigger ally within 10 squares would be hit by an enemy attack.
Free Action: Ally gains benefit as though the Warlord performed an aid defense action; This may be selected after damage has been rolled for.
While it still has a leader cast to it, I think this would be more subdued.

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Oh, sure, as a secondary-leader power it'd be fine. (Though, really some secondary leaders, like, oh, the Paladin, have specific powers that are quite impressive leader support, just only a few of 'em.)

Tony Vargas said:

Yeah, I suppose it might. It'd make a very minion-sweeping-focused controller. Oh, sure, as a secondary-leader power it'd be fine. (Though, really some secondary leaders, like, oh, the Paladin, have specific powers that are quite impressive leader support, just only a few of 'em.)

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Could even do it as aid attack as a feat extending it

This noble should be on the list..

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?257437-Noble-A-martial-controller

I actually like [MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION] ,proposal for these special plucky minion mods on that thread.

I think the fanatic loyalist aspect, is what makes this retinue a special of the class and not just anyone convincing normal minions, who go down and or flee after an attack.

The idea of using them to make those arrow barrage attacks that Tony has mentioned would be a good idea... but they could also enable your allies to gain flanking bonuses and other similar benefits.

They might take a hit to enable you or an ally not to... this combined with RWs ideas of 4 states would allow you to then recover them after the fight.

Garthanos said:

This noble should be on the list..

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?257437-Noble-A-martial-controller

I actually like [MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION] ,proposal for these special plucky minion mods on that thread.

I think the fanatic loyalist aspect, is what makes this retinue a special of the class and not just anyone convincing normal minions, who go down and or flee after an attack.

The idea of using them to make those arrow barrage attacks that Tony has mentioned would be a good idea... but they could also enable your allies to gain flanking bonuses and other similar benefits.

They might take a hit to enable you or an ally not to... this combined with RWs ideas of 4 states would allow you to then recover them after the fight.

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I guess the question with these sorts of mechanics is how abstract are you making the game? I mean, its a class feature, right? That means you PRETTY MUCH have to accept that it can't be subject to 'fictional positioning' considerations, to put it in terms that Pemerton would probably use. I'm a little bothered by that kind of thing. I really want a game where fictional positioning is the MAIN regulator of what is viable and what isn't. I just want that fictional positioning to be pretty explicit and rules-controlled so it isn't something that the GM wields like a club (which is how it works in classical D&D type games).

My point is, I'd rather have rules that allow a 'warlord' to gain all sorts of crazy advantages when commanding 'minions', but leave the actual mechanics of such minions (hirelings in 4e terminology) up to the normal hireling rules. Thus a fighter or wizard could easily hire a couple 'archers' to follow him around and provide added firepower, but if they were commanded by a WARLORD (with the right options I suppose) then they'd be much more powerful. Admittedly that's allowing for circumstances to be created by the GM which might make your character unable to perform some function he has, but there are answers to that (IE get some magic which allows the production of instant minions, plan carefully, make sure you have alternative powers/targets for your effects, etc.).

AbdulAlhazred said:

My point is, I'd rather have rules that allow a 'warlord' to gain all sorts of crazy advantages when commanding 'minions',

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The idea is for a warlord.... a build / sub type of warlord who specializes in exactly that not sure what abstraction you are afraid of....

AbdulAlhazred said:

but leave the actual mechanics of such minions (hirelings in 4e terminology) up to the normal hireling rules.

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Oh poppycock the game kills minions like they were paper dude. The plucky sticking with you bit is well within the paradigm of someone not quite a hero inspired by a hero it is because of the influence of that Warlord creating a special relationship with them.

Not entirely sure what you are worried about Abdul you dont just convince a normal npc to jump in front of a blade for you or an ally with normal rules now do you? The joe blow charismatic rogue isnt going to pull it off...

Powers that synchronize these minions to move into coordinated position to flank are no more abstract than any other power in the Warlord list.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Thus a fighter or wizard could easily hire a couple 'archers' to follow him around and provide added firepower,

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That isnt prevented by anything you are barking at a ghost.

A normal warlords abilities are poorly spent targeting minions. They arent designed for it.

AbdulAlhazred said:

I guess the question with these sorts of mechanics is how abstract are you making the game? I mean, its a class feature, right? That means you PRETTY MUCH have to accept that it can't be subject to 'fictional positioning' considerations

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The abilities to gather these allies and influence them in specific ways are the class feature....

If you mean the DM is not encouraged to decide these NPCs just run away... as that would be the DM beating on a class feature. Then yes I do not want the DM deciding these characters with their special relationship to the hero are ditching him. Quite honestly the its rather like the old Paladin Oath bit ... its all fine and dandy if the player is in on the story twist.

sigh

Garthanos said:

The idea is for a warlord.... a build / sub type of warlord who specializes in exactly that not sure what abstraction you are afraid of....



Oh poppycock the game kills minions like they were paper dude. The plucky sticking with you bit is well within the paradigm of someone not quite a hero inspired by a hero it is because of the influence of that Warlord creating a special relationship with them.

Not entirely sure what you are worried about Abdul you dont just convince a normal npc to jump in front of a blade for you or an ally with normal rules now do you? The joe blow charismatic rogue isnt going to pull it off...

Powers that synchronize these minions to move into coordinated position to flank are no more abstract than any other power in the Warlord list.


That isnt prevented by anything you are barking at a ghost.

A normal warlords abilities are poorly spent targeting minions. They arent designed for it.

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I think you are missing my point. I'm talking about practical considerations, like "nobody ever fed these guys, or paid the slightest attention to whatever was needed to bring them along, but mysteriously here they are!" which is exactly very abstract and weird! This is what I mean when I talk about fictional positioning.

As for all the other stuff, calm down dude! If you want to have effects that toughen up your 'minions' and make the whole thing worthwhile (I'd tinker some here, minions don't need a LOT of tweaking) its fine. I just find it pretty odd when someone deep in some dungeon somewhere suddenly trots out a row of spearmen that logically couldn't have gotten there and mysteriously were never mentioned until now.

Garthanos said:

The abilities to gather these allies and influence them in specific ways are the class feature....

If you mean the DM is not encouraged to decide these NPCs just run away... as that would be the DM beating on a class feature. Then yes I do not want the DM deciding these characters with their special relationship to the hero are ditching him. Quite honestly the its rather like the old Paladin Oath bit ... its all fine and dandy if the player is in on the story twist.

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Yeah, sure, there actual behavior can be whatever makes them a good class feature.