5e invisibility and Detect Magic

Let's not forget: "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure."

But even with the stone golem example, I might still check passive perception or let the party make an active perception role if they describe doing so. "You have an eerie feeling that you are not alone. You feel a presence at the other end of the room.

They don't know that it is a golem. They are not even sure they are detecting any invisible. Sometimes the "detection" is more fun.

Plaguescarred said:

Creatures don't stop being one to instead become object because they're standing still and not moving.

In order to even try to mask your location and hide (it's usually about the only benefit barring some exceptions) you usually have to not be seen clearly; be it obscured, invisible or covered in some case like the halfling or the elf. So in a situation where an invisible or heavily obscured creature hiding would be detected, while the creature detecting it would now know it's location, it would still not be seen unless it also has a way to see through the heavy obscurement or invisibility.

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Correct, I was just saying I would treat the golem as an object in that case, since it doesn't have involuntary actions that make sound like breathing, heart beat, etc. It would change because its inanimate.

Yes. The Invisibility condition states that the your space becomes heavily obscured, so you can always try to hide. The Hiding rules make it more clear also but just stating that.

Yes, knowing a creatures location doesn't mean you see it.

I would go further in some cases for a massive creature that is so large it would attack the entire space a PC is in, seeing the PC in that case is somewhat irrelevant. A Purple Worm is so massive that it effectively tries to swallow an entire 5' space, your actual outline wouldn't matter. That would create a bad feeling among players though, so its strictly a limited use thing.

MNblockhead said:

Let's not forget: "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure."

But even with the stone golem example, I might still check passive perception or let the party make an active perception role if they describe doing so. "You have an eerie feeling that you are not alone. You feel a presence at the other end of the room.

They don't know that it is a golem. They are not even sure they are detecting any invisible. Sometimes the "detection" is more fun.

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I agree in some cases. Passive Perception is somehow being conceived as an always on radar, that's not how it works or how its meant to work. You still have to have something to detect. An example was used for an invisible trip wire, clearly as invisible and not making a sound nor giving away its location it is impossible to see regardless of how high your passive perception is.

Another example would be an ambush with the attackers being silent in dark spaces (heavily obscured) outside of PC light source vision range. Passive Perception would never let you detect them and they would get to attack with advantage (unseen attacker rules) however I would set a DC for you to hear the incoming arrows to maybe get out of the advantage part. The attack would give away their location, but only the direction, they are still in heavily obscured spaces beyond your vision range. At that point the PCs better shoot that arrow or rock with light cast on it to illuminate the attackers or use that Faerie Fire spell (a great spell.) The PC should douse their light source once the enemies is illuminated to turn the tables.

Something that is rarely used is invisible or stealthy creatures in a very loud environment. You would certainly get a bonus to remain unheard in such an environment. PC don't take advantage of this enough, you just say to the DM "I am going to try to hide and stealth around, the environment is so noisy I will use it as a distraction" would be enough for me to give a bonus. An invisible PC in a noisy environment who mentions the noise to me would be undetectable even as it moves in most cases. If it attacks from range I would still let keep its location hidden, limited the monsters knowledge to a general direction.

smbakeresq said:

Because its how you read English. You also read only that sentence but nothing else, try reading them all.

You are trying to achieve the same thing, but each has its own set of prerequisites. Hiding is the Hide action, requiring you to not be seen (cant take Hide action) by using something to obscure vision like being out of line of sight. Invisibility always allows you to take the Hide action, its in the description of the Hide action. Lurking in Darkness means being in an area that is heavily obscured, such as an area with no light or beyond creatures vision with its light source, for example you are 60' away from a creature holding a torch. They all achieve the same thing.

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The Hide action is one way to become hidden. Being invisible, or being in total darkness achieves the same effect, without the need of the action. You are effectively hidden while invisible. That puts it back to "guess the square".

In my example, I explained it. It is also in the monsters description, which I quoted. Its called an Invisible Stalker, not an invisible and silent stalker. The Stalker is undetectable until it move, it moves and makes a hide check with a +10 modifier as it makes sound as it moves, like the wind and in a direction if you are perceptive enough (active not passive) and if it attacks you know the direction of the attack and its location (Unseen attackers and Targets) where upon you focus on it and track it until it stops making noise and leaves no trace of its movement (takes the Hide action.) You could take an opportunity attack if it moves away (with disadvantage.)


I get your confusion, but the Stalkers description clearly states "Unseen Threat. Invisible stalkers are composed of air and are naturally invisible. A creature might hear and feel an invisible stalker in passing, but the elemental remains invisible even when it attacks. A spell that allows someone to see the invisible reveals only the invisible stalker's vague outline.

Its always invisible but you can hear and feel it in passing. It can ALWAYS try to move silently (HIDE) since it always has the invisibility condition.

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There's a huge gulf between "can", "might" and "automatically does". There's no logical reason for you to know a stalker's location without a roll once the creature moves following discovery. I get D&D sucks for simulation, but this throws even my V-tude. You only get to know it's location at the time of the attack, not forever until it hides again.

UngeheuerLich said:

But yes, I did not experiment with flour and invisible creatures. But since you obviously did I should believe you.

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True, I didn't do any physical experiments with flour and invisible creatures.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.. And watched "Hollow Man" on the hotel TV. (Not a great movie, but has some imaginative visual effects surrounding the main villain's invisibility schtick.)

--
Pauper

Pauper said:

True, I didn't do any physical experiments with flour and invisible creatures.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.. And watched "Hollow Man" on the hotel TV. (Not a great movie, but has some imaginative visual effects surrounding the main villain's invisibility schtick.)

--
Pauper

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So looking a fictional movie is called research now? Ok lets drop it. None of us will konow how it interacts. I would be totally fine with toons physics if it makes a good story.

UngeheuerLich said:

So looking a fictional movie is called research now?

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Spoiler alert: pretty sure Mearls and Crawford didn't do any research before publishing the D&D rules on hiding and the description of the Invisibility spell. So it all starts with them, really.

Ok lets drop it.

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Sounds good, now that I got the last word in.

--
Pauper

Dausuul said:

Since the golem's Stealth skill is a whopping -1, it is very likely to be detected (and its location pinpointed) whether it's hiding or not. You walk into the room and just know that there's an invisible golem in the corner.

"Invisible creature standing still" is one of the failure points of the stealth rules.

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Is it? It seems some information is being imparted by the -1 stealth skill -- that the iron golem is bad at hiding. This seems to be overlooked by "invisible creature standing still." The 'standing still' part is pre-narration, we don't really know if the iron golem is, in fact, standing still. If it rolls it's stealth check and gets a 2, clearly it's doing something wrong which may be making a good bit of noise while moving. If, on the other hand, the iron golem gets a 19, it's likely standing pretty still and quietly.

I see this often come up in these discussions -- that such and such narration isn't well supported by the rules. But this ignores the procedure of play -- if an action is uncertain, roll then narrate the roll outcome. In this case, the uncertain bit is 'do the characters notice the invisible golem in the corner.' D&D handles questions about character undeclared actions via passive scores, so the uncertainty is resolved by the golem rolling stealth against the characters' passive perception. A failure is narrated as such, in that the golem does something to be noticed. A success, the opposite -- the golem is not noticed. If, instead, you decide that the situation is not uncertain -- ie, the golem is perfectly motionless and invisible -- then do not roll or engage passive perception. You,as DM, can declare an action as failure and narrate it as such; you don't have to use the rules for uncertain outcomes when doing so.

ehren37 said:

The Hide action is one way to become hidden. Being invisible, or being in total darkness achieves the same effect, without the need of the action. You are effectively hidden while invisible. That puts it back to "guess the square".



There's a huge gulf between "can", "might" and "automatically does". There's no logical reason for you to know a stalker's location without a roll once the creature moves following discovery. I get D&D sucks for simulation, but this throws even my V-tude. You only get to know it's location at the time of the attack, not forever until it hides again.

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Wrong. Hidden is UNSEEN AND UNHEARD. "If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." PHB Page 195

The Hide Action only lets you become UNSEEN. "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet." Page 177

You are not "effectively hidden" when invisible, you are UNSEEN and need to do something else to be UNHEARD to become HIDDEN. The Invisibility Condition states: " An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.



You simply do not understand that the following things are DIFFERENT:


1. UNSEEN - means the enemy cant see you. To be unseen you need to have something that blocks vision to you, like heavily obscured space or invisibility. It is a PRE-REQUSITE to attempt the HIDE ACTION.


2. UNHEARD - means you are not making any sound at all. This usually requires a Hide check or Stealth check as appropriate to the situation. Silence spell or elven boots work. You need to do this in some cases combined with the HIDE action to become --->


3. HIDDEN - is UNSEEN and UNHEARD. You need BOTH to be hidden. Hidden is poorly defined though, you can be unseen and unheard and still give away your position, say by standing on a soft surface where you foot impressions are seen.


4. INVISBILITY is a CONDITION that you gain or lose. It means you are UNSEEN and impossible to see. You can use this to take the HIDE action. See page 177. You can be detected if you make noise or leave tracks, see Invisibility Condition. Being detected means you are still UNSEEN but your general location (the space you are UNSEEN in) is now known. You still get to attack with advantage and be attacked with disadvantage.

None of those terms are interchangeable, they are distinct.

Attacking ALWAYS gives away your location. Your location stays known until you become HIDDEN again, which means UNSEEN (no vision to you) and at least UNHEARD ("Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.")

Invisibility means you are always UNSEEN but does not grant UNHEARD, the other requirement to being HIDDEN.

An invisible stalker (and other invisible creatures) make noise as they take actions. The invisible Stalker description says so. It makes VERY LITTLE noise, stealth check +10. There is no "take 10 rule" anymore, however there are PASSIVE check rules. If players want to use a passive check (perception) to find the invisible stalker then I would rule the Stalker uses a passive check (stealth) to be hidden, the result then would stealth 20.


Of note, the Invisible Stalker has no special Hide ability. However, it is always invisible, which means if it stays silent and doesn't leave tracks (signs of its passage) it gets the full benefit of the Invisibility condition, which is impossible to see.

The correct way to play a stalker (IMO) is

1. they are invisible and silent and thus hidden when PC enter their location, impossible to see. They have dark vision so they would prefer a dark or dim light room.

2. They will attempt to swoop in an attack, using stealth checks to stay silent on approach: "Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard."

3. When they attack they give away their position, so the PC can attempt an opportunity attack with disadvantage if the stalker moves away.

4. The stalker moves away to an unreachable position, once that limits line of sight, probably up or behind something to block attacks. The PCs would still know its location but might not be able to reach it or attack it with ranged weapons.

5. Stalker goes silent again, trying a stealth check, or swoops in to attack again.

The Stalker has several advantages that make it tough:

a. it almost always attacks with advantage (it always has the invisible condition) and has multiattack, so it will score many hits and many critical hits.

b. The stalker will almost always be attacked with disadvantage even if you know its location. The AC of 14 plays higher then it appears, as does its 104 HP.

c. it is intelligent and cunning (wis 15) so it knows that risking an opportunity attack is preferable to not moving and getting attacked multiple times.

d. it is intelligent and cunning (wis 15) so it knows to attack unarmored or weaker PCs first and has the movement to get there.

e. it is intelligent and cunning (wis 15) and knows that creatures that carry a light source probably need a light source so will attack the light source to put everyone in the dark. It will also understand the bright light and dim light effects, so it would retreat to the high dark corner of the room to get hidden.

f. It knows it has good strength so will try to use shove as appropriate to move weak PCs into hazards and off ledges.

g. it is intelligent and cunning (wis 15) so it would of course try things that don't break being hidden, say dumping burning oil from a chandelier or brazier over the PC's, forcing a save as opposed to attacking (and giving away its position)

h. It knows it can fly, so will choose areas to maximize its movement. It also knows if an enemy starts flying it is the most dangerous enemy.


They are tough enough.

Ovinomancer said:

Is it? It seems some information is being imparted by the -1 stealth skill -- that the iron golem is bad at hiding. This seems to be overlooked by "invisible creature standing still." The 'standing still' part is pre-narration, we don't really know if the iron golem is, in fact, standing still. If it rolls it's stealth check and gets a 2, clearly it's doing something wrong which may be making a good bit of noise while moving. If, on the other hand, the iron golem gets a 19, it's likely standing pretty still and quietly.

I see this often come up in these discussions -- that such and such narration isn't well supported by the rules. But this ignores the procedure of play -- if an action is uncertain, roll then narrate the roll outcome. In this case, the uncertain bit is 'do the characters notice the invisible golem in the corner.' D&D handles questions about character undeclared actions via passive scores, so the uncertainty is resolved by the golem rolling stealth against the characters' passive perception. A failure is narrated as such, in that the golem does something to be noticed. A success, the opposite -- the golem is not noticed. If, instead, you decide that the situation is not uncertain -- ie, the golem is perfectly motionless and invisible -- then do not roll or engage passive perception. You,as DM, can declare an action as failure and narrate it as such; you don't have to use the rules for uncertain outcomes when doing so.

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This is on the right path. Look at Stealth skill:

Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.

In this case the Golem isn't trying to do anything, it is motionless until its trigger is activated. Its not even trying to be silent, it is silent, not making sounds and not making tracks, so it has the Invisible Condition, impossible to detect by normal means.


If it was an invisible statue no reasonable DM would allow someone to perceive it, you would make them describe what they are doing, search the room, etc. like the invisible object rules. If the golem was completely visible, I might allow a check to tell that is in fact a golem as opposed to an actual statue.

In the case of my example of the invisible stalker, it does make some noise all the time, but with stealth of 10 its passive stealth would be 20, so its mostly silent.